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Author Topic: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......  (Read 6076 times)

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3kgthog

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2006, 08:29:27 AM »
Why in the hell would you guys think TJack should've been our QB? Did you guys even watch him during the playing time he got? Passes 10 feet over the receiver's head. Balls in the dirt killing moles. Bad decisions all around. If the guy goes in the game and starts kicking the ball around and throwing INTs, why would you keep him in when you can just insert Matt Jones and have him run 80 yards?

Jackson had enough chances to just do something so simple as start a 40 yard drive or get some first downs. He never did either one and thus sat on the bench where he belonged.


Offline authorhawgerelli

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2006, 08:34:42 AM »
Why in the Starkville would you guys think TJack should've been our QB? Did you guys even watch him during the playing time he got? Passes 10 feet over the receiver's head. Balls in the dirt killing moles. Bad decisions all around. If the guy goes in the game and starts kicking the ball around and throwing INTs, why would you keep him in when you can just insert Matt Jones and have him run 80 yards?

Jackson had enough chances to just do something so simple as start a 40 yard drive or get some first downs. He never did either one and thus sat on the bench where he belonged.

I take it that you didn't watch any of the Monday night game he just played in?  The point many are making is that it is sad that our coaching staff was not able to develop his talent, and keep him and, possibly, the most athletic player we've ever had on the field at the same time.


Offline Law_Hawg

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2006, 08:50:03 AM »

The point is, that it illustrates and validates what many of us have been saying for a very long time now.

a. Houston Nutt has no idea how to develop talent.

b. Other coaches can, and do.

c. We're fricked.


Best part of this is that it's not just "another coach", but a coach whose son (Michael Coe) was playing for Nutt up until this season. 


Offline Animal

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2006, 10:00:43 AM »
I don't think it illustrates or validates any of those things.  There have been many players transfer from Arkansas (as at every other school) that didn't blow up elsewhere.  Just because one player found a better fit for him and developed, that doesn't prove a, b or c.

There are many sides to this discussion.


Very few SEC coaches felt Tjack was an SEC caliber QB, many recruited him to be a linebacker as I remember. Using this logic, Nutt gave dude a shot when others didn't just to get him on campus. In a different situation he may have turned into a fine QB for the Razorbacks but as a sign of the times it was just real hard to move Jones over to wideout when he clearly could do a lot of damage at the QB position. Again I think a great deal of this comes back to diddy wanting his boy to play QB, but to Nutt's defense the guy really didn't show anything to merit him staying on the field. As has been noted time and time again, the players that need to be "developed" don't develop at Arkansas for the most part...the kids that already had natural talents or were already well on there way to becoming developed were the ones that have had sucess in the Nutt era. Tjack was the classic case of a QB "project" that should have been developed for a few years before ever stepping onto the playing field but he was needed early and didn't produce. He had all the measurables you look for in a QB, big strong kid with a rifle arm, had good quickness, basically had the stature of a pro QB from the moment he stepped on campus. He didn't have much of a clue how to read and react, he didn't have sick quickness like the 6-6/220lb freak and didn't have any touch on the football...most importantly he wasn't homegrown.


Validating a coach or coaching staffs ability or inability to harvest and develop talented players is hit and miss. We look at cases like the Tjack case and see that dude is looking pretty good for the Vikings while he couldn't manage a series of downs for the Razorbacks three or four years ago. We wonder what could have been had he stayed with the Hogs. Cases like this one reinforce our strong suspicion that this coaching staff is capable of harvesting just not developing. Can Tavaris Jackson attribute any of his current success to his time with the Arkansas Razorbacks? That would be for him to answer...I would suspect his reply would be his time with the Razorbacks was a good experience he's got fond memories of his days with MJ and others, ect, ect....BUT I just needed to go to a place where my skills could be developed and maximized. The guy was no doubt a late bloomer, even with Alabama State he wasn't all-world talent...he put up good numbers but still looked simular to the player we remember not being able to read and react. Over time at Alabama State he matured as most QB's do, and now he's playing in the NFL.



The leason we can learn from this is not to expect instant sucess from our young players, especially QB's. Players are not unlike anyone else...they are people who mature over time. They gain strength and confidence in their abilities as the mature...the good ones continue to work hard and fight through adversity. They have a goal to becoming great football players, great students, great people for their communities. There is a whole lot going on for a QB at the SEC level, a kid straight out of bumfrick, Alabama isn't necessarily going to be able to step in and throw darts any better than a kid from Chickendale, Arkansas....we need to remember that.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2006, 10:19:42 AM by Apathy's Last Kiss »

Offline BigRedBalls

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2006, 10:31:31 AM »

Matt Jones improved over 4 years at QB.  You only have to look at the stats and watch a tape from his freshman year versus his junior or senior year to see it.  Shawn Andrews went from good to best in the country by the time he left.  Frey Talley went from little-known player to 1,000 yard rusher.  George Wilson went from walk-on to solid SEC receiver.  Kenny Hamlin went from a recruit nobody knew about to an NFL star.  David Barrett turned into a cornerback with a decent NFL career.  Batman left as a first round NFL pick.  Eddie Jackson was not a real highly rated recruit as I recall, yet he is still developed and made it to the NFL.


Don't forget Jamaal Anderson went from WR to DE.
Reggie Fish went from punt catcher to clip board flash card holder.
Fred Bledsoe went from DT to Oliver Miller.

And many other good examples.


Offline Aporkalypse_Now

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2006, 10:39:48 AM »
That's because no hardcore Houston Nutt hater will ever acknowledge any improvement by any player.  They will only acknowledge walk-on to high NFL pick as improvement, which is rare everywhere, not just at Arkansas.

Some high profile ones, though ...

Matt Jones improved over 4 years at QB.  You only have to look at the stats and watch a tape from his freshman year versus his junior or senior year to see it.  Shawn Andrews went from good to best in the country by the time he left.  Frey Talley went from little-known player to 1,000 yard rusher.  George Wilson went from walk-on to solid SEC receiver.  Kenny Hamlin went from a recruit nobody knew about to an NFL star.  David Barrett turned into a cornerback with a decent NFL career.  Batman left as a first round NFL pick.  Eddie Jackson was not a real highly rated recruit as I recall, yet he is still developed and made it to the NFL.

If I had the time to look back, I am sure I could give more examples, those are just easy ones. 

The fact is that people who want to hate on Nutt ignore players who get better.  They ignore all the players that transfer and don't go on to be NFL draft picks.  If players leave good and get drafted, people say that it was their own doing.  If they don't get better, it was Nutt's fault.

Whenever anyone complains about a coach not developing players, you can almost certainly bet that he is just talking out of his ass.

You and Fat Pat are making completely different points.  Do you not see that?


Offline ArkGuy

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2006, 10:41:23 AM »
I vastly underestimated the ineptitude of our coaching staff.

Don't ever make that mistake again.

If you ever sense you are starting to slip, just chant this three times: "McFadden and Jones, one carry each against Vanderbilt ..."

It will sharpen your focus and clear your mind.

Of course, you might also then start remembering things like reinserting Stoerner back into a rent-a-win with a three touchdown lead and getting him hurt, etc., which might lead you to crashing your car into an interstate bridge, or climbing a water tower with a deer rifle, or at least kicking your dog and snapping at your children. 

So don't over do it.

"As the leader of all illegal activities in Casablanca, I am an influential and respected man."

Offline Aporkalypse_Now

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2006, 10:57:11 AM »

Damn...hardcore hater? Me? Talking out my ass? Me? My ass?

OK, well, I see your point. A little. There are exceptions and some have improved and developed. Like I said, I can't come up with much of a list, I didn't say I can't come up with any list.

But (there is always a but when I admit to talking out my hardcore hating ass) Matt's stats got somewhat better, but the teams got worse. I think that points to HDN's overall cluelessness on how to run a team, put the correct people in the correct position at the correct time and his inability to maximize what talent he does have. I maintain that Matt was misused and not developed toward his potential. It always looked to me a lot like Nolan's later years - rolling the ball out there and yelling "GET AFTER IT!".

Shawn Andrews was just good from the very start and got better as he went along.

Fred Talley had more desire than anyone we've seen up there in a while.

Batman came in as a first round draft pick.

I could comment on the others on your list, but we'll just go back and forth and not agree I'll bet.

My favorite was the Ken Hamlin "recruit nobody knew" comment.  See, what happened there was that Tennessee and the highest tier schools thought he wasn't quite good enough to play there. Then he was MVP of the Tennessee-Kentucky all-star game and everyone commented on how amazing it was he had slid under the radar of UT and other teams.  Fulmer said that he made a huge mistake not to recruit him after that game.  He was a heralded recruit thereafter and he was immensely talented from the day he stepped on campus.  I think he again was a player that peaked as a Soph and it's hard to argue he was ever that much better, but he didn't have much room to improve.  He was that good.

Shawn Andrews, Fred Talley, David Barrett, etc, etc, etc were just as good as Sophs as Seniors.  I'm not sure they were really "developed", they were just very talented early.

If you two were debating that Nutt brings in sleepers who end up being better than advertised, he would be right and even Bua, Sam O, etc could be included.  However, when we're discussing player development it's a different argument.  In fact, I would say the biggest difference in that regard occurred during Nutt's FIRST year when guys like Stoerner, Lucas, Garner, Caver, Kennedy, Barrett, etc, etc seemed 100% better than the year before.  Since then I think everyone but Rage seems to see that players seem to peak as Sophs and never really improve much.

Then there are the hosts of player that were promising early in their careers that never developed, some obviously because of injuries but others just kind of disappeared.  Brandon Holmes is the one that just sticks in my mind.


Offline Jar2

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2006, 10:57:28 AM »
There wasn't a single Woppussy member who lamented the departure of TJack the day it was announced he was transferring.

This thread is garbage to the Tennessee-nth degree.

can't believe you even took the time to write that

Offline Aporkalypse_Now

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2006, 10:59:16 AM »
There wasn't a single Woppussy member who lamented the departure of TJack the day it was announced he was transferring.

This thread is garbage to the Tennessee-nth degree.

I proudly admit it.  I also admitted the reason:  I would never have thought that even our inept staff could make a NFL-quality QB look THAT bad. He looked awful. 


Offline Show-Me Hog

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2006, 11:06:01 AM »
There wasn't a single Woppussy member who lamented the departure of TJack the day it was announced he was transferring.

This thread is garbage to the Tennessee-nth degree.

Exactly right.  The "WHY THE FUCK IS HE IN THE GAME" threads were legion.  No one wanted him to say.

So he developed elsewhere.  This thread is total garbage.


Offline Aporkalypse_Now

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2006, 11:10:16 AM »
Exactly right.  The "WHY THE frick IS HE IN THE GAME" threads were legion.  No one wanted him to say.

So he developed elsewhere.  This thread is total garbage.

So you and J.J. don't think it's significant that Alabama State could develop a QB into an NFL-caliber player and 2nd round draft pick that we couldn't develop enough to make look like he had any business starting in high school? 

The fact that we didn't think he was worth a shit has nothing to do with anything.  It's the coaches' job to develop talent.  He apparently had it but looked like had never touched a football before every time he got the snap.  Don't you think coaching played a role in that?


Offline Show-Me Hog

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2006, 11:16:24 AM »
So you and J.J. don't think it's significant that Alabama State could develop a QB into an NFL-caliber player and 2nd round draft pick that we couldn't develop enough to make look like he had any business starting in high school? 

The fact that we didn't think he was worth a shit has nothing to do with anything.  It's the coaches' job to develop talent.  He apparently had it but looked like had never touched a football before every time he got the snap.  Don't you think coaching played a role in that?

Alabama St. did not have any SEC QBs or any QBs who could beat out TJ.  So there, TJ got the ball, he got the time, he got the starts.  Over time, his mental and football abilities started to catch up to his natural abilities.

Now, if you want Arkansas to play like Alabama St. for a couple of years, just so we can develop TJ and get him to be a good QB by his senior year, who has a shot at the NFL, I'm sure we could have done that.  But that's a whole 'nother vision for our program than I have.

(I also have a whole 'nother vision than what happened the last couple of years, but that's a different thread.)


Offline Aporkalypse_Now

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2006, 11:23:15 AM »
You are exactly the type I was talking about.  Nobody knew who the frick Kenny Hamlin was at the time he was signed.  All the stuff you are talking about was just the typical fluff Grit does to every relatively unknown recruit.  I doubt he was an NFL starting safety his first year at Arkansas, but he was there by the time he left.  Any player that is any good, you want to discard from any discussion of development.  Like I said, only walk-on to high NHL (EDIT:  while that would be impressive, that should be NFL) draft pick is good enough to admit any development.

Your comment that players "seem" to peak as sophomores doesn't mean anything, even if you try to attribute it to "everyone but Rage."  You would expect the biggest leap for players to be from freshman to sophomore year.  That's just common sense.  That's probably why it "seems" to you that is when they peak.

As for players that just don't develop, everyone has them.

"Nobody knew who the frick Kenny Hamlin was at the time he was signed."

Yeah, but not long after he signed and well before he set foot on campus he was the MVP of the Tennessee-Kentucky all-start game and everyone, including outside of AR, was talking about what a dominant player he would become in the SEC. 

Again, you're off track.  We were discussing PLAYER DEVELOPMENT, not finding  talented players who were overlooked in high school.  You're discussing a completely different topic than the one I am.  But go ahead and rant about it all you want.  You're on a roll.


Offline Show-Me Hog

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2006, 11:28:54 AM »
I will agree that he has NFL-caliber cliche-spouting talent.

Quarterback Tarvaris Jackson

Q: Was there anything you saw in your first game that you did not expect?

A: I thought we did a good job of getting ready for the game. They pretty much did the same things that they did last week. We just wanted to execute our offense.

Q: How comfortable were you with the offense?

A: I was comfortable with the start that we had, which was really the base stuff. There wasn't really a whole lot of stuff that we threw in there. I was pretty much comfortable with everything.

Q: What can we expect from Tarvaris Jackson in the future?

A: I'm just trying to get better each day. I'll go to practice on Wednesday and try to get better, and just try to continue to progress. I'll leave it up to my coaches to grade the film.


John Coctosten

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2006, 11:30:39 AM »


Now, if you want Arkansas to play like Alabama St. for a couple of years, just so we can develop TJ and get him to be a good QB by his senior year, who has a shot at the NFL, I'm sure we could have done that.  But that's a whole 'nother vision for our program than I have.




You have been blinded by the kool aid. I would hazard a guess that we were no better than Alabama State the last two years.


Offline Show-Me Hog

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2006, 11:36:52 AM »
You have been blinded by the kool aid.

You must be joking.  You have no idea how I longed for Nutt to take that plane ride to Lincoln.


I would hazard a guess that we were no better than Alabama State the last two years.


Now I know you're joking.  As bad as we've been, that's ridiculous.


rimrocker

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2006, 11:37:11 AM »
I will agree that he has NFL-caliber cliche-spouting talent.

Quarterback Tarvaris Jackson

Q: Was there anything you saw in your first game that you did not expect?

A: I thought we did a good job of getting ready for the game. They pretty much did the same things that they did last week. We just wanted to execute our offense.

Q: How comfortable were you with the offense?

A: I was comfortable with the start that we had, which was really the base stuff. There wasn't really a whole lot of stuff that we threw in there. I was pretty much comfortable with everything.

Q: What can we expect from Tarvaris Jackson in the future?

A: I'm just trying to get better each day. I'll go to practice on Wednesday and try to get better, and just try to continue to progress. I'll leave it up to my coaches to grade the film. I'm not getting any feedback. I'm fucked.



Offline Jar2

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2006, 12:32:55 PM »
You are wrong there.

I know one.

True, but you guys would have just attributed it to my being  O0 and wanting one of my "brothers" to start.

I know my role here.

can't believe you even took the time to write that

Offline checkrazor

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2006, 12:39:45 PM »
True, but you guys would have just attributed it to my being  O0 and wanting one of my "brothers" to start.

I know my role here.

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The_Big_Hogowski

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2006, 02:20:16 PM »
I was referring to myself.


An Omega never likes to see The Man holding down one of his brothers.


I was with you.


Offline Animal

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2006, 03:40:31 PM »
True, but you guys would have just attributed it to my being  O0 and wanting one of my "brothers" to start.

I know my role here.

Jimmy Lee is that you?  :stunned:



Summation:
Nutt & Staff have been known to find players be it the diamond in the rough variety or in some cases what we would refer to as a 4 or 5 star caliber kids. It is my contention that players that had the natural abilities to play football had sucess, players like Shawn Andrews didn't just fall off the truck and strap a helmet on...dude was very highly rated coming out of high school and it took him a very short time before he was starting, although I do recall he didn't start the first game or two his freshman season. George Wilson was an excellent route runner, probably the best route runner Nutt has ever had conversely Richard Smith in recent memory is probably the best "talent" Nutt had at that position yet he never really blew up into being a great college football player. DeCori Birmingham, never really blew up...he had his moments of glory but the word on him coming out of high school was dude was going to do special things. I don't read Grit by the way so don't go there.

Since we are talking about Nutt (a career offensive coach) and what I belived to be offensive player or players, I seperate the ability to find players vs. the ability to do something with those prospects once they've arrived. Although I realize Nutt ultimately gets the blame I don't think of Nutt developing any defensive players, so I don't count guys like Bua, Butu, Barrett, Hamlin, Miller, etc. I would ask someone to find all that many offensive players that played for Nutt and were reasonably sucessful that weren't already pretty damn gifted one respect or another. It's subjective to tab one guy as "developed" and another one "a nutt clusterfrick" the reality is some players are "coachable" others aren't. Some players need more time others can be affective practically immediately, over time I would imagine we will see less true freshmen participating on the offense side of the ball. I see Malzahn's system as being far more complex than the offense Nutt ran even though they are exactly the same thing according to all noteable accounts.

Back on track: Name some guys Nutt supposedly "developed". Matt Jones got slightly better when Witke was brought in, but how much of that was natural maturity vs. a coaching staff teaching him how to read defenses...come to think of it I don't remember him ever really improving his arm strength though his completion percentage did improve. Cedric Cobbs regressed for the most part under Nutt, some if not all of that is attributed to himself and perhaps a little of it goes to Decker. On the offensive line we've developed many kids into our schemes that ended up playing well...if there is one major area where Nutt has improved this program it's the offensive line and now we have more depth than we've had in a long while. Many of those guys weren't thought to be high grade talent, the two that were (Tubbs and Ugoh) haven't really lived up to there billing but they may top off this season as a great finish to their careers. I'm sure someone can come up with a few names other than O-linemen. Fred Talley has been mentioned, the year he came I seem to recall he was looking pretty good at tailback before being moved to corner where he wasn't too shaby either. You really want to no the truth about it, dude might be playing on sundays if he had stayed on the defensive side of the ball.


The point to my ramblings is anyone could make an arguement one way or another on this topic. This all gets back to coaches get too much credit for sucess and losses. In the end it all comes down to players playing hard, keeping their nose clean, and fighting through the adversity that they'll undoubtedly face.


Offline Aporkalypse_Now

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2006, 06:46:42 PM »
I was referring to myself.


An Omega never likes to see The Man holding down one of his brothers.


Omega?  What are you an Omega fucking' Mu?

Jared Lorenzen was your QB?


Offline Aporkalypse_Now

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2006, 07:08:56 PM »
Dont f.cking talk to a Q like that.

You're a Q?



Never woulda thunk it.


Offline Aporkalypse_Now

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Re: Tavarious Jackson now on MNF.......
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2006, 07:17:41 PM »
funny.

Please tell me about Dallas.

Cedar Springs is the part you would like.