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Author Topic: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824  (Read 31604 times)

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Offline BASS

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #250 on: February 12, 2012, 01:27:30 PM »
You're right because one game is going to absolutely break the bank for the University.   ::)

giving up $1.5m a year to play one game in lr is a dumb business decision.  the executives I work for would go apeshit over $20,000 a year for an un-beneficial charity cause, much less $1.5m.
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Offline BASS

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #251 on: February 12, 2012, 01:39:32 PM »
Bullshit.  They do it all the time.

Again you guys are assuming that those are the accurate numbers.  That's a big assumption, even being thrown around in this thread as 'FACTS'.  As it's been pointed out, not a damned one of us knows the facts as they pertain to the financials concerning the 'cost' of a game in LR.  How would you feel if it came out it only cost the university 200k/game?

And 'throwing away'?  That's pretty short sided financial management and assumes there is ZERO return on that money.  You guys like to use the "big corporation" model as an example, but when someone points out that the shareholders should reap some dividends you fly off the handle.
 

   
 

fayetteville: 76,000 tickets x $55 = $4,180,000
little rock: 55,000 tickets x $55 = $3,025,000

granted they did raise the ticket price for lr games by $10, so the new math is lr 55,000 x $65 = $3,575,000

add in the fact that the uofa gets $0 from wms concessions vs majority % of razorback stadium concessions = unknown
if the uofa gets 55% and the average fan spends $5 per game, then 76,000 x $5 x 55% = $209,000.

add in the additional money the uofa gets from suites, club seats, chairbacks, chairback seating in the sez, parking revenue = unknown, but I'd bet a conservative estimate is well over $.5m per game. 

$605,000 ticket revenue + $209,000 concession revenue + $500,000+ suites, etc. and we're up to $1,309,000.  I don't think $1.5m to $2m per game difference is that far off of reality.
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Offline Phat_Hawg

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #252 on: February 12, 2012, 01:51:04 PM »

$605,000 ticket revenue + $209,000 concession revenue + $500,000+ suites, etc. and we're up to $1,309,000.  I don't think $1.5m to $2m per game difference is that far off of reality.

Does that factor in the additional expenses involved in playing in Little Rock such as rental ($75,000 I think)?
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Offline Denny Crane

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #253 on: February 12, 2012, 02:21:04 PM »
WTF are you talking about?  This is 100% incorrect.

You are so confident, and so wrong.

Looking at Rivals, we only brought recruits in on official visits for one game, Auburn. And only 3 kids were on officials. Most coaches prefer to bring kids in after the season. They get to spend a shitload more time with them, the kids aren't exhausted from playing in a game late Friday night then either traveling late that night or super early the next morning, and the visit is more on the front of their mind as signing day approaches.

Most football games are used for unofficials... kids can get free tickets if they want to come to the game, but that's about it. We can have unofficial visitors to one LR game, so that point is moot. You could argue we lose a chance to have unofficial visitors for the second LR game, but that argument falls short as we give up unofficial visitors every time we schedule a home-and-home (rumored Rutgers deal) or a neutral site game (Dallas).

The recruiting visit thing had validity when the SEC banned all off-campus visits and we were playing 3 games/year in LR. Now that we are playing 2 and can have have visitors for 1 off-campus game, it really has little to no impact.

Offline Denny Crane

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #254 on: February 12, 2012, 02:26:33 PM »
fayetteville: 76,000 tickets x $55 = $4,180,000
little rock: 55,000 tickets x $55 = $3,025,000

granted they did raise the ticket price for lr games by $10, so the new math is lr 55,000 x $65 = $3,575,000

add in the fact that the uofa gets $0 from wms concessions vs majority % of razorback stadium concessions = unknown
if the uofa gets 55% and the average fan spends $5 per game, then 76,000 x $5 x 55% = $209,000.

add in the additional money the uofa gets from suites, club seats, chairbacks, chairback seating in the sez, parking revenue = unknown, but I'd bet a conservative estimate is well over $.5m per game. 

$605,000 ticket revenue + $209,000 concession revenue + $500,000+ suites, etc. and we're up to $1,309,000.  I don't think $1.5m to $2m per game difference is that far off of reality.

1) 10,000 student tickets are sold for a buck, so you don't get 76,000 x the ticket price in Fayetteville.
2) When is the last time we had 76,000 for a rent-a-win, which are the types of games even LR folks are wanting played in WMS? Never, that's when. We didn't even sell out the top ten matchup vs. USC this year. A more realistic estimate would be around 65,000, and I'd bet that might be generous for butts-in-the-seats for a game along the lines of New Mexico in November.
3) You're leaving out the entire second set of donations we receive from the RSVP program. For example, my in-laws only hold LR tickets, and they have to pay a donation just for the rights to those tickets.

In other words, your numbers make RRS look better and WMS look worse in every calculation. There is no doubt lower revenue generated from playing in WMS, but not as drastic as you make it appear.

Offline HoneyBakedPiglet

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #255 on: February 12, 2012, 03:03:23 PM »

Quote
1) 10,000 student tickets are sold for a buck, so you don't get 76,000 x the ticket price in Fayetteville.

This implies there are zero students in LR. Not true so its a wash.

Quote
2) When is the last time we had 76,000 for a rent-a-win, which are the types of games even LR folks are wanting played in WMS? Never, that's when. We didn't even sell out the top ten matchup vs. USC this year. A more realistic estimate would be around 65,000, and I'd bet that might be generous for butts-in-the-seats for a game along the lines of New Mexico in November.

Which is still more than LR.

Quote
3) You're leaving out the entire second set of donations we receive from the RSVP program. For example, my in-laws only hold LR tickets, and they have to pay a donation just for the rights to those tickets.


Which will be made up by people donating to get tickets to RRS games when they're moved. It may not be your in-laws but it'll be someone.

Quote
In other words, your numbers make RRS look better and WMS look worse in every calculation. There is no doubt lower revenue generated from playing in WMS, but not as drastic as you make it appear.

If my boss saw that the company's bottom line could be improved by 6% ($1million per game, two games, total budget of ~$70million), and I told him we couldn't because there was too much loyalty to the vendor we use and they'd supported us throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s but had fallen off their usefulness since then, he'd tell me to go fuck myself because I was fired. Your confirmation bias wont let you accept any argument you don't agree with. Everyone is guilty of it to some degree but right now your sounding like a horse and buggy salesman trying to keep those damned automobiles out your city. Change happens and its not always for the worse. Get used to it.
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Offline wmr

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #256 on: February 12, 2012, 03:42:24 PM »
I'm going to intervene in this cripple fight to remind both of you that there are 132 luxury suites in Fayetteville, plus indoor and outdoor club.

After factoring in the annual rent on the box, the average luxury suite ticket is actually around $300 per game if my math is right.

LSU fans are tres gauche.

Offline CJLR

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #257 on: February 12, 2012, 03:54:22 PM »

Which will be made up by people donating to get tickets to RRS games when they're moved. It may not be your in-laws but it'll be someone.


Who?  Why aren't they donating now?  Why wait?  It's complete bullshit to say for a fact that there is a certain group of people just waiting to cover all the donation cash that may be lost as a result of moving all the games.  Hell, I remember reading about RSVP where some people thought it was bullshit that they had to give any donation money at all to get season tix.  But whatever.

Jeebus, the last three pages of this thread look like they were lifted straight fro
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Offline ArkGuy

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #258 on: February 12, 2012, 04:20:30 PM »
Has there been a recent expansion?  Because arkansasrazorbacks.com says DWRRS has a capacity of 72,000, not 76,000.  Announced crowds greater than that include "every beating heart," like visiting band, security and ushers, etc.  But that's true everywhere, including LR.

So, if you start with 72K and subtract 10K students, you include $62K paying full price.  In LR, most games it seems there are maybe a third of that in the student section.  Say 3,500.  So LR would be 53,500 minus 3,500 = 50K paying full freight.

So I think the "net net" would mean about a 12,000 seat difference.  At $55 per that's about a difference of $660,000 per game.

Now, I think the "$1 per game" Fayetteville tickets for students are now rolled in a $50 per year for all sports activity fee so, though the cost accountants might quibble about how much of that should be credited to football, but some of that half million dollars of student revenue per year would push that $660,000 per game up. 

Another wild card not mentioned how much, if any, premium seating revenue would increase if Fay all the games or even all but one.  Would someone already paying, e.g. $X,000 per year for their box or covered seats pay more per season if there were 7 or 8 games there instead of 5.5 or 6?  I don't know.  If yes, then that widens the gap.  However, if there is currently premium revenue from LR games (the fancy pressbox?), that might drop with the movement of one or both games.  So that would shrink the gap.

And I won't even bothr getting into predicted changes in donations if one or both games are moved.

Bottom line, Long knows what all the numbers are NOW.  Not even he knows the way attitudes might affect revenue in the FUTURE.  He probably thinks an incremental approach is the most painless and will get him where we need to be soon enough.  In fact, it might even be the smartest way to reshape attitudes.
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Offline Denny Crane

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #259 on: February 12, 2012, 04:36:54 PM »
This implies there are zero students in LR. Not true so its a wash.


There are about 2,000 students in LR games, much less than the 10,000 in Fayetteville. It would only "be a wash" if there were 10,000 students in both places, you see. That's how the math works.

So the smaller number of students removes about $520,000 (8,000 tickets at $65 vs $1 in Fayetteville) of revenue hit from the LR games.

Quote
Which is still more than LR.

Yes. The point is that it's not as drastic as you make it out to be.
 

Quote
Which will be made up by people donating to get tickets to RRS games when they're moved. It may not be your in-laws but it'll be someone.

 I guess those people are going to materialize out of thin air? Believe it or not, the line about some people going to LR games and not going to Fayetteville games are true. Not everyone eats and breathes football like you and I do, unfortunately.

There is an old couple in LR that sit in front of me at the LR games. Had season tickets since the 70's. Love the Hogs, donate money, and even go to some of the games in Baton Rouge, and went to the Liberty Bowl. They've never had tickets to Fayetteville.

Believe it or not, you don't have to go to Fayetteville games to love and support the Hogs. There are is indeed a distinct group of people that only attend and donate games to LR. That should be accounted for when discussing revenue.

Quote
If my boss saw that the company's bottom line could be improved by 6% ($1million per game, two games, total budget of ~$70million), and I told him we couldn't because there was too much loyalty to the vendor we use and they'd supported us throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s but had fallen off their usefulness since then, he'd tell me to go frick myself because I was fired. Your confirmation bias wont let you accept any argument you don't agree with. Everyone is guilty of it to some degree but right now your sounding like a horse and buggy salesman trying to keep those damned automobiles out your city. Change happens and its not always for the worse. Get used to it.

This whole analogy is tired and wrong-headed, at best. If you want to use stupid analogies to the corporate world, then you'd be best off using an example of post-merger a company throwing the acquired company's home city a bone and leaving a headquarters in the region. It costs more on direct cost basis, but it avoids pissing off a large group of stakeholders and builds positive favor towards the company and its brand. That analogy is wrong for a whole host of regions, but it's a helluva lot closer than your stupid comparison.

Offline Denny Crane

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #260 on: February 12, 2012, 04:41:34 PM »
I'm going to intervene in this cripple fight to remind both of you that there are 132 luxury suites in Fayetteville, plus indoor and outdoor club.

After factoring in the annual rent on the box, the average luxury suite ticket is actually around $300 per game if my math is right.

Sure, if you divide total donation + ticket price by the number of games, but it doesn't work that way. If you added a LR game to Fayetteville you'd add the cost of the individual ticket times total ticketholders in the suites, unless they bumped donation levels up as well. They could easily bump donation levels and not increase the number of games, and account for a large chunk of that revenue anyway.

Offline wmr

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #261 on: February 12, 2012, 04:56:14 PM »
Sure, if you divide total donation + ticket price by the number of games, but it doesn't work that way.
 

The boxes are on a lease agreement, just like if you rented a home.  Donation amounts are separate from that.
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Offline Denny Crane

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #262 on: February 12, 2012, 04:59:23 PM »
 

The boxes are on a lease agreement, just like if you rented a home.

Right, but then you still purchase tickets by the game (unless they changed that last season).

So, you have your base donation, lease whatever....for the entire year. You then purchase tickets for however many games there are. So, extra games in Fayetteville would increase revenue from suiteholders in the form of more ticket sales, but unless they bumped lease/donation rates, it wouldn't be some huge windfall.

And, I'm not a suiteholder, but from talking to those that are, they don' typically vary the lease/donation rate based on the # of games. It's a fairly static number no matter how many games are in Fayetteville (didn't go down when we gave away a home game to Dallas, for example).

Offline wmr

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #263 on: February 12, 2012, 05:03:26 PM »
If there was ever a justification for raising the rent on suites, it would be having another game in Fayetteville.

Most people automatically break it down mentally to a per-game amount per suite when looking in to renting one.  Its human nature.

It impacts the value of the Chartwell's contract that the university has, too.  On game days, your average suite probably spends $400-$500 with Chartwell's.

Its another consideration when comparing per game revenue streams with WMS.  The suites definitely factor in financially in a big way.

LSU fans are tres gauche.

Offline Denny Crane

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #264 on: February 12, 2012, 05:05:12 PM »
If there was ever a justification for raising the rent on suites, it would be having another game in Fayetteville.

Most people automatically break it down mentally to a per-game amount per suite when looking in to renting one.  Its human nature.

It impacts the value of the Chartwell's contract that the university has.  On game days, your average suite probably spends $400-$500 with Chartwell's.

Its another consideration when comparing per game revenue streams with WMS.  The suites definitely factor in financially in a big way.

Your Chartwell's number is way off, based on my experience. I know 3 people that have suites, they all self-cater.

Offline wmr

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #265 on: February 12, 2012, 05:06:47 PM »
Your Chartwell's number is way off, based on my experience. I know 3 people that have suites, they all self-cater.

Most that I know of do a mix of self and Chartwell's, and its not way off at all.  Ours has had a Chartwell's bill north of $600 several times.
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Offline wmr

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #266 on: February 12, 2012, 05:12:09 PM »
Anyway, the point is the suites are leased for the season.  With more Fay games, you increase the value of the suites.  It would be stupid to go to 7 or 8 Fayetteville games and not bump up the total lease amount.  You're talking about a large suite that leases for around $5-6k per game, times however many of those there are.  $3-4k for the smaller ones. 

Plus concessions, minus all the people who have to be paid, such as ushers, etc, minus the light bill and water bill.

LSU fans are tres gauche.

Offline Southern Yeoman

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #267 on: February 12, 2012, 07:44:56 PM »

Offline Mike Slive

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #268 on: February 12, 2012, 07:48:15 PM »
Falsely.

Shouldn't you be watching Smokey and the Bandit?  Seriously, GFY.

Offline bakervscarrr

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #269 on: February 12, 2012, 07:55:44 PM »
Arguing the financials is pointless. Fayetteville wins out every time, by a margin that varies depending on how fast and loose you play with the numbers.

All those arguing for games in WMS have to offer are potential losses, immediate and down the road. The margin of error for these estimations is absolutely massive, and that should be recognized every time discussing them.

That doesn't mean the potential pitfalls don't exist, though. Even if it might take two decades or longer for them to materialize. I'm not worried about losing the support of Little Rock. It's the towns on the fringes of the state that currently still send athletes to an extent, but more importantly students that in turn become boosters.

Do the benefits of moving the games outweigh the potential losses? Almost certainly when basing the decision 100% on financials, especially when you look at where we are getting our students from and how the population of the fringes of the state is dwindling. That doesn't mean that something won't be lost.  We'll lose a part of what makes us unique. Like no other.

A lot of people have called it sad in the course of saying it needs to be done. It's certainly that, which is why it's so baffling why some refuse to recognize and offer the delicacy the situation calls for.

Offline DirkPiggler

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #270 on: February 12, 2012, 08:36:22 PM »
WTF are you talking about?  This is 100% incorrect.

There is nothing incorrect at all in my statement. 

As someone else posted, we hosted exactly three kids for official visits at home games this season.  That's three out of I believe 55 official visits you are allowed to have per season.  The only disadvantage with respect to recruiting is that we currently cannot host recruits on UNofficial visits for more than one game away from the campus.  And I'm not meaning to diminish the importance of unofficial visits either.  But if we play only one game in WMS as I and many others have suggested, then we can host kids at that WMS game and there is no disadvantage. 

Please feel free to dispute these facts with facts of your own.

Offline Hogtired

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #271 on: February 12, 2012, 08:41:29 PM »

A lot of people have called it sad in the course of saying it needs to be done. It's certainly that, which is why it's so baffling why some refuse to recognize and offer the delicacy the situation calls for.

Because everyone with an opinion knows best and will tell you so. This is an emotional issue and this thread shows it
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Offline Denny Crane

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #272 on: February 12, 2012, 08:58:41 PM »
Arguing the financials is pointless. Fayetteville wins out every time, by a margin that varies depending on how fast and loose you play with the numbers.


No one is disputing that RRS >>>> WMS in direct revenue. But it is irritating for the "move the games" crowd to act like RRS is a federal reserve printing press. There are a few issues that mitigate the financial gap, although there is obviously still a gap.

The main ones are:

-- the much larger amount of students in RRS at $1/ticket
-- the $10 LR surcharge (which should be bumped by $5/year until it reaches $20)
-- and the fact that the games we are talking about moving in the future would draw more like 60-65,000 vs. a full house when compared to LR's 55,000 (and that's not including any seats that might be added in expansion)


I bet the direct revenue for say, a New Mexico, is a lot closer than you'd think. I'd also expect that the direct revenue for an LSU, is a lot farther apart than you might think.

 


Offline Southern Yeoman

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #273 on: February 12, 2012, 09:10:15 PM »
Shouldn't you be watching Smokey and the Bandit?  Seriously, GFY.
I don't need to watch.  I am Gator McKlusky, son.  Heh-heh.

Offline Phat_Hawg

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #274 on: February 12, 2012, 09:25:02 PM »
You are so confident, and so wrong.

Looking at Rivals, we only brought recruits in on official visits for one game, Auburn. And only 3 kids were on officials.

rEally?

http://www.arkansassports360.com/27563/otis-kirk-official-visits-list-grows-for-razorbacks-in-season-van-horn-anderson-prepare-for-early-singees

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