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Razorback Related => Razorback Discussion => Topic started by: TheOtherWhiteMeat on February 08, 2012, 10:58:31 AM

Title: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: TheOtherWhiteMeat on February 08, 2012, 10:58:31 AM
http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article.aspx?aid=130158.54928.142287
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 08, 2012, 11:11:35 AM
Put some more lipstick on that pig, goddammit.

Jeez.  Add a few luxury suites and then, boom, all will be well!  Meanwhile, Fayetteville will likely be up to 80,000 capacity by then with many of those being chairbacks. 

Just give it up already.  100 years from now, Arkansas won't play games in LR.  50 years from now, Arkansas won't play games in LR.  Just end the fucking madness now before you guys throw more money down the toilet.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Phat_Hawg on February 08, 2012, 11:12:39 AM
Who would be paying for that?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 08, 2012, 11:15:57 AM
Who would be paying for that?

I'm sure it'd be the tax payers.  You know. Because Arkansas doesn't need to put money towards anything else.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HogofWar on February 08, 2012, 11:19:39 AM
Put some more lipstick on that pig, gawddamnit.

Jeez.  Add a few luxury suites and then, boom, all will be well!  Meanwhile, Fayetteville will likely be up to 80,000 capacity by then with many of those being chairbacks. 

Just give it up already.  100 years from now, Arkansas won't play games in LR.  50 years from now, Arkansas won't play games in LR.  Just end the fricking madness now before you guys throw more money down the toilet.

This.

This will just be a fresh coat of lipstick, the first was the stupid new press box that everyone in the stadium paid for with the increase of each LR ticket. I hope Long has the good sense to move the LSWho? game to Fayetteville this year. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 08, 2012, 11:28:27 AM
They'll try to wrangle an extended contract from U of A before proceeding. Hopefully Petrino will be having more success and that will make it easier for Long to tell them to go fist themselves.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: chittlins on February 08, 2012, 11:42:23 AM
How bout them moving the state championship games to Fayettevile
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Hogye West on February 08, 2012, 11:52:38 AM
How bout them moving the state championship games to Fayettevile

Might as well. 7A West have seemed to always have the two teams in it every year anyway
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Hogwildpigcrazy on February 08, 2012, 01:15:34 PM
LR needs one or two games. They don't have to be SEC teams, just a couple of games. Give the whole state a better chance to see them at least once.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 08, 2012, 01:17:58 PM
How bout them moving the state championship games to Fayettevile

You can't do that! THe roads are too dangerous and they don't even have lights up there!

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Mike Slive on February 08, 2012, 01:29:09 PM
If LR had a Catfish Hole, I could see us moving all our games there.   :stache:
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: radioman on February 08, 2012, 01:35:22 PM
The glaring omission to me is the lack of details and no mention of any plans to expand the total number of seats to a level that is even in the ballpark of the capacity of our competition.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 08, 2012, 01:40:26 PM
The glaring omission to me is the lack of details and no mention of any plans to expand the total number of seats to a level that is even in the ballpark of the capacity of our competition.

To be fair, they weren't talking to the WMS people. Just one employee.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: chittlins on February 08, 2012, 01:41:19 PM
The glaring omission to me is the lack of details and no mention of any plans to expand the total number of seats to a level that is even in the ballpark of the capacity of our competition.

I doubt that was the true intent. It's to get natives riled up so as the WMS commission can due the least possible to assure themsleves of games after 2016.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Filthy_McSwine on February 08, 2012, 02:02:44 PM
If LR had a Catfish Hole, I could see us moving all our games there.   :stache:

NLR has a Catfish Hole and the fish is damned good.  Service has taken a little hit since Memaw got sick, tho.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: big_pig on February 08, 2012, 02:27:49 PM
I doubt that was the true intent. It's to get natives riled up so as the WMS commission can due the least possible to assure themsleves of games after 2016.

This was my takeaway as well.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: hogsrunwild on February 08, 2012, 02:36:50 PM
The ad pictured in the article is probably the best solution:

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 08, 2012, 03:17:36 PM
Brilliant! Where do we find asbestos and mold? Do you think we should just hide it in the stands or try to get some in the press box too?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: radioman on February 08, 2012, 03:53:21 PM
I have no doubt that is part of it.  I am very much in favor of all home games being played on campus.   I don't mean home games in something like the SW Classic.   If War Memorial was actually good sized and nicer,  I would lower my opposition to that venue.


I doubt that was the true intent. It's to get natives riled up so as the WMS commission can due the least possible to assure themsleves of games after 2016.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: TheOtherWhiteMeat on February 08, 2012, 03:59:21 PM
First, I am for playing all home games at RRS plus finding a replacement for the Southwest Classic at Jerry World. And I grew up going to games at WMS.

WMS was originally built 1) to honor Arkansas' war veterans and 2) to maximize accessibility to Razorback games to fans. WMS is and always has been a state-owned facility and thus is the responsibility of the state, although due to the revenue from Razorback games the state has had to provide little if any funds to the stadium.

While Staggs and the Commission have for the most part done a good job maintaining WMS for the purposes of #1 above, they need to start understanding the need for #2 disappeared years ago and the only reason games are still being played there is because Broyles flubbed the initial attempt at moving games and the sentimentality of many (like myself) who remember becoming Razorbacks fans there.

But at this point, every true Razorback fan realizes that the team needs to play in the venue that gives them the best chance of winning and that is RRS. Anyone who supports games at WMS at this point is no better than the people who put Nutt over the program.

Staggs and the Commission need to get their ass in gear, accept facts, and start exploring ways to replace the lost revenue when all games are moved to RRS. I don't know why we couldn't get one of the lower-tier bowl games. I watched several played in worse places than WMS. Have ASU and UCA play there every year. Do something. But quit thinking the Razorbacks are going to keep playing there forever.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Cerdo on February 08, 2012, 04:12:06 PM
First, I am for playing all home games at RRS plus finding a replacement for the Southwest Classic at .....abbreviated for length...
This is a really intelligent post on the whole deal.  I don't agree with all of it because I personally think we could make a showcase game out of an ASU vs Arkansas "diamond cup" game or something and benefit the state and everyone, but I know that a bunch of you folks who froth at the mouth of "giving Howling and aMm anything" will go crazy. 

One nice game a year, with a healthy rivalry and PPV in WMS.

What other revenue could WMS generate besides a bowl game if the Hogs were off the schedule?  What do you do with an empty stadium and no pro or minor league sports?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ArkGuy on February 08, 2012, 04:15:17 PM
I, too, saw my first Hog game there and still love watching games there but it is is tempting to say it would not only be nuts but almost immoral to spend millions of dollars just so another 10,000 fans can be squeezed in two nights a year for three hours, especially given the existence of DWRRS.

Long could up the ante by fast tracking the Fayetteville stadium expansion.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 08, 2012, 04:25:52 PM
I've said this a lot, but if the stAte thing were to ever come to fruition, you could knock out two birds with one stone.
Agree to play stAte at WMS for XX amount of time and in the same swoop, tell WMS that's their only game.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: chittlins on February 08, 2012, 04:26:27 PM
I, too, saw my first Hog game there and still love watching games there but it is is tempting to say it would not only be nuts but almost immoral to spend millions of dollars just so another 10,000 fans can be squeezed in two nights a year for three hours, especially given the existence of DWRRS.

Long could up the ante by fast tracking the Fayetteville stadium expansion.

Someone with an in can correct me but I think the moment the last jock strap is moved to the new FOC the plans for the nez are to be ushered out. It doesn't require the level of fundraising a non revenue producing project like the FOC does because it produces revenue to service the debt.

I think this is coming out even before the move of the LSU game  to Fayetteville is all but official and it's politics being played.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Oliver Fist on February 08, 2012, 04:51:04 PM
This is getting old. If the people of central/south/east Arkansas want to see the fucking Hogs play, get in your goddamn pickup and drive your ass to Fayetteville like everyone else.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Hogwildpigcrazy on February 08, 2012, 04:57:12 PM
Anyone who supports games at WMS at this point is no better than the people who put Hootie over the program.



I cannot agree with this part. I support at least one game there, even a cupcake. And I am 5% terrorist.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: jsimp on February 08, 2012, 05:01:07 PM
LR needs one or two games. They don't have to be SEC teams, just a couple of games. Give the whole state a better chance to see them at least once.

don't forget, we need to make sure we keep LR locked down as far as recruiting goes.  :suicide:
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Mike Slive on February 08, 2012, 05:01:31 PM
I cannot agree with this part. I support at least one game there, even a cupcake. And I am 5% terrorist.

I get supporting a shit game there but in the SEC, that comes down to LOL Mizz and LOL Miss. Not LSU.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HipHog on February 08, 2012, 05:02:15 PM
get the game day atmosphere on the Hill close to what it is in the Rock and then lets talk. until then your argument is invalid



 :bird:
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: rzrbkfan69 on February 08, 2012, 05:08:11 PM
get the game day atmosphere on the Hill close to what it is in the Rock and then lets talk. until then your argument is invalid



 :bird:

Alabama 2010, Auburn, SC, Tenn 2011 all matched, if not surpassed the game day atmosphere of a Little Rock game. Unless you are talking about the golf course, I don't really care. You can have that scene, I'll tailgate in the pit.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: hogsrunwild on February 08, 2012, 05:11:02 PM
Brilliant! Where do we find asbestos and mold? Do you think we should just hide it in the stands or try to get some in the press box too?

I'm pretty sure that place is ate up with both.  However, my failed point was that we should do like in the picture and just knock it down and add another par-5.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Phat_Hawg on February 08, 2012, 05:44:04 PM
get the game day atmosphere on the Hill close to what it is in the Rock and then lets talk. until then your argument is invalid



 :bird:

Good lord are you going to be a 22 and passed out drunk kid on a golf course for the rest of your life?  The whole "game day atmosphere" in Little Rock is just unmitigated juvenile bullshit on par with Ole Miss' infatuation with "winning the tailgate".
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Mike Slive on February 08, 2012, 05:46:48 PM
That's HipHog you quoted.  College girls make him cringe.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Cerdo on February 08, 2012, 05:47:28 PM
get the game day atmosphere on the Hill close to what it is in the Rock and then lets talk. until then your argument is invalid



 :bird:
When is the last time you, Hiphog, came to a game in Fayetteville? 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Arkansas Proud on February 08, 2012, 05:47:52 PM
I've been to some of the best games in LR in the last 10 years, and I haven't seen anything like AL '10 was in Fayetteville.

The truth that some people don't want to see is that when full and for a big game, Fayetteville can be more imposing than LR.  But who cares?  I still think LR should get a game or two each year so Billy Bob from Lake Village doesn't bitch about driving 5 hours.  But make them crappy games.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: chittlins on February 08, 2012, 06:17:00 PM
When is the last time you, Hiphog, came to a game in Fayetteville?

More drunk teens on the golf course.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: big_pig on February 08, 2012, 06:49:18 PM
What I hate about the great stadium debate is the lack of movement on either side of the issue.

The same arguments are made, sometimes verbatim, yet no one on one side of the fence ever moves to the other. It's a never-ending stalemate.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 08, 2012, 07:03:06 PM
Some people like games in Little Rock.

Some people are also not embarrassed by having a rusty car on blocks in their front yard for five years.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HipHog on February 08, 2012, 07:22:45 PM
When is the last time you, Hiphog, came to a game in Fayetteville?
i dropped my season tix three years ago, but went to a couple games in 10. Didnt get to go to any games lr or fayette last year due to work schedule
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: DRYANKNPULL on February 08, 2012, 07:23:57 PM
i dropped my season tix three years ago, but went to a couple games in 10. Didnt get to go to any games lr or fayette last year due to work schedule

You need to find a new job.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: uagrad89 on February 08, 2012, 07:24:30 PM
Brilliant! Where do we find asbestos and mold? Do you think we should just hide it in the stands or try to get some in the press box too?

There's got to already be some in the press box. How else do you explain Wally Hall?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HipHog on February 08, 2012, 07:25:12 PM
You need to find a new job.
i agree, but i only work three days a week. fri, sat and sun
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Snorts on February 08, 2012, 07:56:37 PM
Fuck Arkansas State.  We owe them nothing.  Arkansas fans should not be asked to contribute a fucking penny to their program.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: uagrad89 on February 08, 2012, 08:09:38 PM
Good lord are you going to be a 22 and passed out drunk kid on a golf course for the rest of your life?  The whole "game day atmosphere" in Little Rock is just unmitigated juvenile bullshit on par with Ole Miss' infatuation with "winning the tailgate".

This, times eleventy-threve billion.

The people that put the "atmosphere" - read "ability to get absolutely plastered and not remember anything about the game you just watched" - above the financial concerns associated with carting the entire athletic department to LR twice a year to play in a high school stadium shouldn't be allowed to purchase season tickets. There are plenty of people in the rest of the state that actually care about the team who will gladly take their place.

Using tailgating as a reason to lose $3 million per game to play in LR. Talk about people with no concept of reality.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HipHog on February 08, 2012, 08:17:18 PM
This, times eleventy-threve billion.

The people that put the "atmosphere" - read "ability to get absolutely plastered and not remember anything about the game you just watched" - above the financial concerns associated with carting the entire athletic department to LR twice a year to play in a high school stadium shouldn't be allowed to purchase season tickets. There are plenty of people in the rest of the state that actually care about the team who will gladly take their place.

Using tailgating as a reason to lose $3 million per game to play in LR. Talk about people with no concept of reality.
wrong, wrong, wrong. I rarely drink so that has nothing to do with it. The whole game day experience is just a million times better in LR.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HipHog on February 08, 2012, 08:18:11 PM
When is the last time you, Hiphog, came to a game in Fayetteville?
when is the last time you, cerdo, came to a game in Little Rock?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Cerdo on February 08, 2012, 08:43:46 PM
I've gone to probably 5 games in the Rock.  I think my last one was in the second Petrino year... not LSU but the early games.  I've also been to LSU games in WMS during the Nutt era. 

I don't criticize the LR crowd or the experience.  I just think people who say that RRS is not a better tailgating experience or a much bigger and better crowd at this point are wrong, either because they are relying on old stereotypes (wine and cheese crowd) or simply don't want to own up to it. 

I don't find it possible that any game in WMS over the last 3 years can match the vibes that have consistently been there for every on campus game over the last 5 years.  I've tailgated at Auburn and LOL Miss multiple times and I personally think it is a better scene now in NWA over both of those locations.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Nukinhawg on February 08, 2012, 08:45:37 PM
wrong, wrong, wrong. I rarely drink so that has nothing to do with it. The whole game day experience is just a million times better in LR.

Just moved back in the state this year and got to go to four games:   the two in LR and two (Troy and Tennesee) on the Hill.  First time since 97 I can say that. 
The game atmosphere in Fayetteville destroyed that of LR (except for the goddamn latte shops.  WTF?!?).  I am almost sad to say that since I always liked the LR games more. 

Yes, tailgating is better in LR but the Hill has almost caught up.

Playing in LR no longer does anything for this program. 

Recruiting?  See Dyer and Tenpenney.
Money?  Loss every game.
Those poor people in SE AR? What about those poor people in SE Alabama that drive to Tuscaloosa drive every week?  They buy gas like everyone else and fill the stadium every game. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Count Porkula on February 08, 2012, 08:46:53 PM
wrong, wrong, wrong. I rarely drink so that has nothing to do with it. The whole game day experience is just a million times better in LR.

yeah, if you like watching drunk fucking idiots from bauxite take off their shirts and fight. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HipHog on February 08, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
s.  I've tailgated at Auburn and LOL Miss multiple times and I personally think it is a better scene now in NWA over both of those locations.
havent been to either, but have been to bama and i put it on par with LR
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 08, 2012, 09:13:22 PM
Lots of University of Northwest Arkansas sentiment in here, taking a DC politics style approach to the rhetoric.

1) Tailgating ain't near what it is in LR. I love to tailgate in Fayetteville, got a great spot, and it's come a long ways....but let's be real. Rolling into the pit two hours before kickoff and trying not to run over the other late arriving tailgaters in the mass of pedestrians around player walk through ain't getting it done.

2) The ignorant shit about WMS being a dump doesn't do anything, other than prove that you haven't been anywhere else other than RRS. Other than its size, WMS is pretty much exactly like most other major stadiums around this country. Most stadiums are huge concrete and steel structures designed to house 80,000 people for 3 hours....with nice areas for 5-10,000 fans to primp and act like they care about football as they play grabass.

3) Bama '10 was a special atmosphere. So was Auburn '11. Above and beyond what you could get in WMS. But that's not the point. The vast majority of the LR crowd has conceded those big games. Give LR two games, including a decent non-con like Tulsa, and let them expand the stadium and people will be happy. Fayetteville gets all the big games, and all the conference games, and doesn't have <60,000 people for a mid-November cupcake in poor weather. 

4) Giving away a home game to Dallas, now against someone most likely along the lines of Texas Tech, while pulling games from the city that supported the university for over 60 years ain't gonna fly. THAT will piss some people off.

5) And here is the most important point. We are as successful and strong as a program since when we won the national title in the '60's. That's great, and I never thought I'd see it during the Nutt years. But, I still looked up with a top 10 team playing an SEC game against a name opponent (Tennessee), and saw full empty sections in the corners of the upper deck. We had ONE game that was chock full this year -- Auburn. There were all kinds of seats for the non-con games.

And that's when we are in the top 10 in the strongest conference in the country with a coach that is treated like a god and the most exciting product on the field anywhere in college football. What happens when we have a down year? And we are 6-6, and we have 48,000 people in that big stadium for a game against LA-Monroe? And then 56,000 the next week for Vandy?

That's when you're going to need the LR games -- not now, not at the zenith of our program in the last 40 years.



All that said....none of this stuff will come down to what you or I post on a message board or really even football. This will play out at the highest levels of state politics, and if WMS is willing to add some more suites and 5,000 or so more seats, I fully expect there to be a completely reasonable compromise met. One that includes all conference games in Fayetteville, and two non-con games in LR with one being the Tulsa, Memphis, etc. of the group.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 08, 2012, 09:26:40 PM
Lots of University of Northwest Arkansas sentiment in here, taking a DC politics style approach to the rhetoric.

1) Tailgating ain't near what it is in LR. I love to tailgate in Fayetteville, got a great spot, and it's come a long ways....but let's be real. Rolling into the pit two hours before kickoff and trying not to run over the other late arriving tailgaters in the mass of pedestrians around player walk through ain't getting it done.

2) The ignorant aMm about WMS being a dump doesn't do anything, other than prove that you haven't been anywhere else other than RRS. Other than its size, WMS is pretty much exactly like most other major stadiums around this country. Most stadiums are huge concrete and steel structures designed to house 80,000 people for 3 hours....with nice areas for 5-10,000 fans to primp and act like they care about football as they play grabass.

3) Bama '10 was a special atmosphere. So was Auburn '11. Above and beyond what you could get in WMS. But that's not the point. The vast majority of the LR crowd has conceded those big games. Give LR two games, including a decent non-con like Tulsa, and let them expand the stadium and people will be happy. Fayetteville gets all the big games, and all the conference games, and doesn't have <60,000 people for a mid-November cupcake in poor weather. 

4) Giving away a home game to Dallas, now against someone most likely along the lines of Texas Tech, while pulling games from the city that supported the university for over 60 years ain't gonna fly. THAT will piss some people off.

5) And here is the most important point. We are as successful and strong as a program since when we won the national title in the '60's. That's great, and I never thought I'd see it during the Hootie years. But, I still looked up with a top 10 team playing an SEC game against a name opponent (Tennessee), and saw full empty sections in the corners of the upper deck. We had ONE game that was chock full this year -- Auburn. There were all kinds of seats for the non-con games.

And that's when we are in the top 10 in the strongest conference in the country with a coach that is treated like a god and the most exciting product on the field anywhere in college football. What happens when we have a down year? And we are 6-6, and we have 48,000 people in that big stadium for a game against LA-Monroe? And then 56,000 the next week for Vandy?

That's when you're going to need the LR games -- not now, not at the zenith of our program in the last 40 years
.



All that said....none of this stuff will come down to what you or I post on a message board or really even football. This will play out at the highest levels of state politics, and if WMS is willing to add some more suites and 5,000 or so more seats, I fully expect there to be a completely reasonable compromise met. One that includes all conference games in Fayetteville, and two non-con games in LR with one being the Tulsa, Memphis, etc. of the group.
Well said. I agree.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HipHog on February 08, 2012, 09:51:24 PM
Lots of University of Northwest Arkansas sentiment in here, taking a DC politics style approach to the rhetoric.

1) Tailgating ain't near what it is in LR. I love to tailgate in Fayetteville, got a great spot, and it's come a long ways....but let's be real. Rolling into the pit two hours before kickoff and trying not to run over the other late arriving tailgaters in the mass of pedestrians around player walk through ain't getting it done.

2) The ignorant aMm about WMS being a dump doesn't do anything, other than prove that you haven't been anywhere else other than RRS. Other than its size, WMS is pretty much exactly like most other major stadiums around this country. Most stadiums are huge concrete and steel structures designed to house 80,000 people for 3 hours....with nice areas for 5-10,000 fans to primp and act like they care about football as they play grabass.

3) Bama '10 was a special atmosphere. So was Auburn '11. Above and beyond what you could get in WMS. But that's not the point. The vast majority of the LR crowd has conceded those big games. Give LR two games, including a decent non-con like Tulsa, and let them expand the stadium and people will be happy. Fayetteville gets all the big games, and all the conference games, and doesn't have <60,000 people for a mid-November cupcake in poor weather. 

4) Giving away a home game to Dallas, now against someone most likely along the lines of Texas Tech, while pulling games from the city that supported the university for over 60 years ain't gonna fly. THAT will piss some people off.

5) And here is the most important point. We are as successful and strong as a program since when we won the national title in the '60's. That's great, and I never thought I'd see it during the Hootie years. But, I still looked up with a top 10 team playing an SEC game against a name opponent (Tennessee), and saw full empty sections in the corners of the upper deck. We had ONE game that was chock full this year -- Auburn. There were all kinds of seats for the non-con games.

And that's when we are in the top 10 in the strongest conference in the country with a coach that is treated like a god and the most exciting product on the field anywhere in college football. What happens when we have a down year? And we are 6-6, and we have 48,000 people in that big stadium for a game against LA-Monroe? And then 56,000 the next week for Vandy?

That's when you're going to need the LR games -- not now, not at the zenith of our program in the last 40 years.



All that said....none of this stuff will come down to what you or I post on a message board or really even football. This will play out at the highest levels of state politics, and if WMS is willing to add some more suites and 5,000 or so more seats, I fully expect there to be a completely reasonable compromise met. One that includes all conference games in Fayetteville, and two non-con games in LR with one being the Tulsa, Memphis, etc. of the group.
this is what i would say if i was intelligent. thanks
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 08, 2012, 09:52:53 PM
We were 5-7 four years ago.  We never had "48k people" in the home stadium in Fayetteville.

Exaggerate and bullshit, because thats the only way the status quo makes sense.

WMS is the second worst stadium in the SEC.  Hell, by some standards it is the worst. 

Some people cling to that and think that is fine for our program.  Others don't.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Pumpkin Escobar on February 08, 2012, 09:56:47 PM
Fuck Arkansas State.  We owe them nothing.  Arkansas fans should not be asked to contribute a fucking penny to their program.


Damn straight. We don't gain shit by playing them and if I want a rivalry, it damn sure won't be with some shitass Sunbelt team.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: DRYANKNPULL on February 08, 2012, 10:05:47 PM
I have not missed a game in WMS since 1979.  I think it is a great atmosphere.  We have been very successful there, and the fans can be amazing and loud.  Great game day experience.  I live 20 minutes from the stadium, which makes it very convenient to go to the games.

It's time to play all of them in Fayetteville.  It only makes sense to do so. It's time.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 08, 2012, 10:09:01 PM
U
We were 5-7 four years ago.  We never had "48k people" in the home stadium in Fayetteville.

Exaggerate and bullshit, because thats the only way the status quo makes sense.


WMS is the second worst stadium in the SEC.  Starkville, by some standards it is the worst. 

Some people cling to that and think that is fine for our program.  Others don't.

Hard to take criticisms about exaggerating seriously in the context of your posts about LR games.

And no, of course there wasnt 47000 people in Petrino's first year. Although I seem to remember barely 35k in their seats at kickoff for fucking homeco ming 5 (or was it 6 years ago?). We wont always have BMFP, unfortunately.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 08, 2012, 10:22:36 PM
Hard to take criticisms about exaggerating seriously in the context of your posts about LR games.

And no, of course there wasnt 47000 people in Petrino's first year. Although I seem to remember barely 35k in their seats at kickoff for fricking homeco ming 5 (or was it 6 years ago?). We wont always have BMFP, unfortunately.

Really?  What part of my post was exaggeration?  I've been to every Fayetteville game the last 6 seasons.  Every single game there over that time period has had a crowd that exceeded the maximum crowd at WMS.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 08, 2012, 10:40:57 PM
Really?  What part of my post was exaggeration?  I've been to every Fayetteville game the last 6 seasons.  Every single game there over that time period has had a crowd that exceeded the maximum crowd at WMS.

Your posts in general, equating WMS to the worst stadium in the SEC and "rusty car blocks." Not only is that not true, it's funny you are so blinded by your hatred of LR that you gripe because the stadium is shitty but you also gripe because the commission wants to improve it. It's obvious you believe NWA is the center of the world, so I'm not sure why I'm even banging my head against the wall in this thread. But, whatever...

Anyway, your confidence in Fayetteville attendance is kind of perplexing; I'll forgo the debate over specific numbers because I don't care to do the research, and those numbers are wild assed guesses at best. I do know that we had a top 10 matchup in Fayetteville this year against South Carolina and didn't sell it out. We had a homecoming game within the last 5 or 6 years that might have had 40,000 people at it, and was so embarrassing that Stepford Fans created a story of a post-apocolyptic pile up at the bobby hopper tunnel to explain it. When we are in the top 5, like this year, is not the issue (despite the non-sellout w/ a top 10 matchup and average attendance at best against non-cons). When god forbid Petrino decides he wants to play golf or take on a new challenge, and we hire the ghost of Tommy Bowden is when it will be an issue. You can pretend that we will be good forever, but we won't. No one, absolutely no one is.

I also take umbrage at your attitude that just because people still want to see games in LR means they are stuck in the 60's. Nothing could be further than the truth. There was a time when Fayetteville couldn't even have a game at night or have nearly as many people as LR could, so we played more games in LR than we did in Fayetteville. Things change, and now we are down to 2 games in LR and looks like we will be down to 2 cupcakes in the near future. That said, that jewell of a stadium and that SEC program wouldn't exist without the support from Central Arkansas and LR games over the years.

And it will hurt the program in the long-term if we pull games totally out of LR, and the University as well. I find it interesting that we don't spend a dime on in-state advertising. A large portion of that is due to our sports teams presence in LR, and the media pep rally and exposure we get everytime a team goes down there. It's good for everyone, and most rational people I talk to, even one's born and raised in NWA, will digress and acknowledge the fact that there is nothing wrong with giving LR 2 non-con games a year, as long as LSU and Bama are in Fayetteville.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 08, 2012, 10:49:42 PM
Its real simple.  I don't have nearly as much emotion tied into the debate as you seem to have.

I don't "hate" Little Rock.  That you perceive that I hate LR, or take issue with my pointing out simple facts, is about you.

The fact remains that WMS is smaller than all but one SEC venue.  It has no amenities that make it nicer than 13 other venues.  In short, its the worst or second worst venue in the SEC any way you slice it.  Most objective observers come to the same conclusion.  Pointing out reality does not equal "hatred".

It takes some real creativity to justify continuing playing in WMS, when we have RRS on campus.  When RRS is expanded again, it will become even more absurd.

Emotion aside, I just don't see a compelling case for it. 

It requires exaggeration and emotion to make any case for playing in WMS. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 08, 2012, 10:59:59 PM
Its real simple.  I don't have nearly as much emotion tied into the debate as you seem to have.

I don't "hate" Little Rock.  That you perceive that I hate LR, or take issue with my pointing out simple facts, is about you.

The fact remains that WMS is smaller than all but one SEC venue.  It has no amenities that make it nicer than 13 other venues.  In short, its the worst or second worst venue in the SEC any way you slice it.  Most objective observers come to the same conclusion.  Pointing out reality does not equal "hatred".

It takes some real creativity to justify continuing playing in WMS, when we have RRS on campus.  When RRS is expanded again, it will become even more absurd.

Emotion aside, I just don't see a compelling case for it. 

It requires exaggeration and emotion to make any case for playing in WMS.

Funny, I'm the emotional one yet you are the one that firebombs Little Rock and WMS:

Some people like games in Little Rock.

Some people are also not embarrassed by having a rusty car on blocks in their front yard for five years.


As far as the venue, I doubt you've been to all the SEC stadiums. I've a shitty job that has put me in various cities all over the south, and the only benefit of said shitty job is getting to go to abunch of football games.

Newsflash: WMS is the exact same as 90% of stadiums out there, albeit a smaller. Now, if more seats always equal better, then I guess RRS is way down the list of SEC stadiums. I'm not saying WMS is a palace. But it looks and feels just like nearly every stadium I've been in, again, excepting its size. It's clear that most people that call it a dump have only been to two venues in their entire life, both in this state. Criticize it for its size, but the dump talk is ignorant. Really the only word.


And the compelling case for LR games is the fact that I don't want to see a fragmented state in 30 years all because we didn't want to give away two games that most people in this area of the state would yawn over, probably skip the tailgate if the weather wasn't perfect, and stay for the first half of a blowout? Versus having 100,000 people tailgating and a frothy fanbase desperate to see the Razorbacks? While we are giving away a game to Dallas? I don't see the compelling case for not farming out two shitty games to LR every year.

It's worked for 60 years, and has allowed our program to punch above its weight when we have the right coaches in place. Emotion aside (that makes me the mature one if I say that, right?).
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Aporkalypse_Now on February 08, 2012, 11:11:00 PM
A few thoughts on this thread:

I grew up in LR and my grandfather went to Hog games at Quigley back in the 20s, when Little Rock HS could get more fans at Quigley than UA could in Fayetteville. I went to a ton of SWC games in the 80s and kept going to games through college, med school and afterwards.  When I was in HS I parked cars at WMS as Catholic's JROTC program did this to raise money.  I have always been a biased pro-LR, pro-WMS guy.

Now I live in Dallas and make it to about 5 home games a year plus the one here (and our bowls the last two years).  I drive about 5 hours either way, driving to LR is a little easier.

Pre-expansion in 2001 WMS >>> RS and it wasn't even close.  It was louder, more fun, more a true stadium instead of just stands, etc and the tailgating was awesome.

When we expanded RRS 72K seemed like too much, but it wasn't.  We filled it up pretty well, despite the fact we weren't consistently good.  Fayetteville has always been in a backward far corner of the state and couldn't lure fans.  It impeded our program and is a big reason we couldn't become a Bama, Nebraska or Georgia where the campus was better accessible to the state's population.  Little Rock games outdrew those in Fayetteville until a decade ago.  NWA is obviously very different now but the big difference was first I-40 and especially since then I-540.  Now you can safely drive home at night, and if you want to stay in a hotel you can actually find one.  It's really just not that hard to get there anymore.  Sure there are people in far flung rural corners of the state that struggle to get there, but there are also hordes driving up from Texas and Memphis that don't seem to mind.  Distance and seclusion just aren't really a factor anymore.

Whoever said tailgating was better at RRS is loco.  We have some of the worst tailgating I've seen on any campus, largely due to the layout of the area.  The Gardens are contrived, and people are just kind of randomly scattered in various lots.  There are a plethora of paved lots and a parking deck where you can't really tailgate.  In the end does tailgating really matter that much?  No, it's not a primary endpoint.  But tailgating is what I will miss most about WMS.

The atmosphere at RRS passed WMS with the 2010 Bama game IMO.  Until then I'd always thought the RRS crowd was usually dull and disinterested.  A combination of national relevance, an excited student body, piped in music and orchestrated fan chants, and the loud PA system seems to have made RRS just a whole lot better.  The crappy TV and PA system at WMS seem to keep the crowd more detached from the game than I used to remember now.  Both are loud, but I really think the 2010 Bama game and 2011 Auburn and SC games were louder than any I've ever been to.

The bottom line will be dollars and cents.  Jeff Long is working with a budget of $72 million when our rivals have $100-110 million.  Answer the Call helped but we simply can't compete if we don't stop giving away money we don't have to.  The difference between 5 homes games and 7 homes games at RRS is a tremendous amount of revenue, especially with new premium seating in the NEZ at RRS.  Long has handled the fanbase in LR quite well, spending lots of time in LR, making sure baseball and basketball are played there and we have the NSD signing deal down there.  He will do everything in his power to keep LR involved. I read a complaint about playing in Dallas, but that's a half home game, and it nets us $8 mil+ over 2 years, which is more than we net in 2-3 years playing two games at WMS.  Petrino may only be here a limited time, but this is our opportunity to catapult ourselves back to a top 10 program so we can replace him with a Holtz instead of a Nutt. We have to get our financial house and facilities in order.

Little Rock doesn't have a rival program within 2 1/2 hours.  Do people really think Ole Miss fans will start taking over Little Rock just because we no longer play at WMS? Come on, now.  The LR media market represents half of the state by itself, well over a million people.  When the games are moved Long will do everything in his power to do it with class and respect.  It's because of LR's special history with the Hogs and loyalty and support to UA that we are still playing games years after everyone else gave it up.  Everyone needs to respect that, and just understand it's a business decision that has to be made for our program to stay competitive.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 08, 2012, 11:13:33 PM
LR should get 1 crappy rent-a-win per year.  It'll be a gift.  AT MOST.  And said game should never be a "home" game for Arkansas.

Recruiting.  Not being able to host the occasional recruit for a visit during a certain weekend because we're playing in LR is pretty fucking retarded.  That's really all that should be said about it if we're truly serious about winning a NC.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 08, 2012, 11:14:28 PM
You took my rusty car analogy as a direct slam on you or the city of Little Rock. 

It was really just about two things that don't make any real sense, but some people insist on doing anyway.

WMS is not as nice as VHS.  WMS is not as nice as Scott Field or whatever they are calling State's stadium these days.

Is the difference huge?  Not really, but WMS is still inferior. 

Look what you are doing.  You're justifying Arkansas playing in the SEC's second-shittiest stadium because its "not that much worse" than a couple of the worst stadiums in the SEC.  That's a pretty fricking low bar, and if there's emotion for me in the debate at all, its that some of our fanbase has such low fricking standards that being the worst "but not by much" is ok for them.  That's the rusty car analogy. 

The "Well that'll do, it ain't that bad" horseshit, because its more convenient for you and you're too fricking lazy to be bothered with progress or taking pride in the program. 





 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 08, 2012, 11:32:20 PM
Whoever said tailgating was better at RRS is loco. 

Maybe as a part of the transition, Long needs to take, say $2 million of the first year's revenue increase, work with the University to knock down all of that shitty, University-owned housing behind the UAPD and north of the Tennis Center and let people tailgate back there for a decade or so.  I've always thought they should terrace that hillside NE across Stadium Drive below the administration building so people could tailgate there, too.  Tailgating improvements should be considered as a part of the switch when it happens.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Big Sausage Pizza on February 09, 2012, 12:39:28 AM
You guys are frickin' crazy.

I love me some WMS.

I've never seen a Razorback game there, but I did watch my 4th grade daughter's soccer championship there.
OK, it was my daughter, I just like to watch the 4th graders play soccer, but that's beside the point.
The reality is the stadium is all that, and for a big college game, probably twice or even three times as fun.

There are some things that we could do to make it better.
First, drop some red turf, and then issue special black uniforms to the the team, all black, including the helmet.
All the old timers would love that chit.
Also, bring back those Corky's BBQ Nachos, the ones with the red jalapenos.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Hogtired on February 09, 2012, 06:29:46 AM
Lots of University of Northwest Arkansas sentiment in here, taking a DC politics style approach to the rhetoric.

1) Tailgating ain't near what it is in LR. I love to tailgate in Fayetteville, got a great spot, and it's come a long ways....but let's be real. Rolling into the pit two hours before kickoff and trying not to run over the other late arriving tailgaters in the mass of pedestrians around player walk through ain't getting it done.

2) The ignorant aMm about WMS being a dump doesn't do anything, other than prove that you haven't been anywhere else other than RRS. Other than its size, WMS is pretty much exactly like most other major stadiums around this country. Most stadiums are huge concrete and steel structures designed to house 80,000 people for 3 hours....with nice areas for 5-10,000 fans to primp and act like they care about football as they play grabass.

3) Bama '10 was a special atmosphere. So was Auburn '11. Above and beyond what you could get in WMS. But that's not the point. The vast majority of the LR crowd has conceded those big games. Give LR two games, including a decent non-con like Tulsa, and let them expand the stadium and people will be happy. Fayetteville gets all the big games, and all the conference games, and doesn't have <60,000 people for a mid-November cupcake in poor weather. 

4) Giving away a home game to Dallas, now against someone most likely along the lines of Texas Tech, while pulling games from the city that supported the university for over 60 years ain't gonna fly. THAT will piss some people off.

5) And here is the most important point. We are as successful and strong as a program since when we won the national title in the '60's. That's great, and I never thought I'd see it during the Hootie years. But, I still looked up with a top 10 team playing an SEC game against a name opponent (Tennessee), and saw full empty sections in the corners of the upper deck. We had ONE game that was chock full this year -- Auburn. There were all kinds of seats for the non-con games.

And that's when we are in the top 10 in the strongest conference in the country with a coach that is treated like a god and the most exciting product on the field anywhere in college football. What happens when we have a down year? And we are 6-6, and we have 48,000 people in that big stadium for a game against LA-Monroe? And then 56,000 the next week for Vandy?

That's when you're going to need the LR games -- not now, not at the zenith of our program in the last 40 years.



All that said....none of this stuff will come down to what you or I post on a message board or really even football. This will play out at the highest levels of state politics, and if WMS is willing to add some more suites and 5,000 or so more seats, I fully expect there to be a completely reasonable compromise met. One that includes all conference games in Fayetteville, and two non-con games in LR with one being the Tulsa, Memphis, etc. of the group.

I completely agree.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: hogfan58 on February 09, 2012, 07:01:41 AM
Funny, I'm the emotional one yet you are the one that firebombs Little Rock and WMS:


As far as the venue, I doubt you've been to all the SEC stadiums. I've a shitty job that has put me in various cities all over the south, and the only benefit of said shitty job is getting to go to abunch of football games.

Newsflash: WMS is the exact same as 90% of stadiums out there, albeit a smaller.



I've been to every stadium in the SEC at least once and WMS is at or near the bottom. The 2 Mississippi stadiums have been dressed up, but are still dumps. UK's is drap and nothing special, but nicer. USCe is much bigger and sits in the middle of a field, but again, nothing special. All the others are head and shoulders nicer and better.

As far as atmosphere, the problem with RRS vs WMS is 2-fold...(1) the on-campus drinking restriction. This is HUGE. While there is obviously still drinking going on, the campus cops do crack down on this and it does effect the rowdiness in the stadium. No one can argue that tailgating scene (aka drinking) is far better in LR, which translates to the better atmosphere at WMS. Which leads to (2) the argument of 76,000 vs 55,000. This is a revenue discussion, which RRS wins. Because in the atmosphere discussion, you have to subtract all the people sitting behind glass that add NOTHING to it. You can't hear them, the team can't hear them. Add in that RRS isn't enclosed (yet) and that is why all the WMS folks go on and on about WMS being louder with less people...well, it really isn't.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 09, 2012, 07:17:58 AM



I've been to every stadium in the SEC at least once and WMS is at or near the bottom. The 2 Mississippi stadiums have been dressed up, but are still dumps. UK's is drap and nothing special, but nicer. USCe is much bigger and sits in the middle of a field, but again, nothing special. All the others are head and shoulders nicer and better.

As far as atmosphere, the problem with RRS vs WMS is 2-fold...(1) the on-campus drinking restriction. This is HUGE. While there is obviously still drinking going on, the campus cops do crack down on this and it does effect the rowdiness in the stadium. No one can argue that tailgating scene (aka drinking) is far better in LR, which translates to the better atmosphere at WMS. Which leads to (2) the argument of 76,000 vs 55,000. This is a revenue discussion, which RRS wins. Because in the atmosphere discussion, you have to subtract all the people sitting behind glass that add NOTHING to it. You can't hear them, the team can't hear them. Add in that RRS isn't enclosed (yet) and that is why all the WMS folks go on and on about WMS being louder with less people...well, it really isn't.

Neyland is shittier than WMS, but much bigger. Tiger Stadium might be this shittiest stadium in the nation, it's bad. Vandy is beyond pathetic. Vaught has high school bleachers in one end zone and is not much bigger. Davis Wade, although I hear they've made some improvements, is worse. Used to be much worse. A&M's stadium is covered in bat shit and I thought I was going to get staph just walking through the place. Athens is nice, but their concourses are so small you can't get to the bathroom in less than 25 minutes.

The point isn't that WMS is some kind of palace, the point is that the hyperbole that WMS is somehow the worst stadium in the country is aggravating and ignorant. It's small and doesn't have enough luxury seating. Bang on it for that. But other than that, the fan experience is no different for 95% of fans that go to games compared to other stadiums around the conference and the country.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 09, 2012, 07:24:53 AM
You took my rusty car analogy as a direct slam on you or the city of Little Rock. 

It was really just about two things that don't make any real sense, but some people insist on doing anyway.


Look what you are doing.  You're justifying Arkansas playing in the SEC's second-shittiest stadium because its "not that much worse" than a couple of the worst stadiums in the SEC.  That's a pretty fricking low bar, and if there's emotion for me in the debate at all, its that some of our fanbase has such low fricking standards that being the worst "but not by much" is ok for them.  That's the rusty car analogy. 

The "Well that'll do, it ain't that bad" horseshit, because its more convenient for you and you're too fricking lazy to be bothered with progress or taking pride in the program. 
 

If low standards isn't wanting the vast majority of our fans to skip tailgating, yawn on the way to the game, and leave at halftime of a November rent-a-win, when we could have 100,000 people tailgating and an excited crowd, all in our state's center and population base, then yeah, I have low fricking standards. You're the one that's delusional, and too fricking lazy to be bothered with progress or taking pride in the program. You'd rather roll out of bed and drink your mimosa and get to the game 30 minutes before kickoff, for a game you probably would flip back and forth on TV if it was paired against a big SEC game, than continue to give that shitty game to a part of the state that is one of the big reasons for the success of the program today. You're the lazy and emotional one, that's pretty clear.

The problem isn't with LR fans not being willing to "change," and this bullshit caraciture you like to parrot. In fact, the reason I want LR games is so we won't be the worst. Because if the university is regionalized in 30 years, or god forbid something crazy happens like Gus does turn ASU in to Boise of the south, I don't want to see abunch of other gear around LR besides Razorback gear.

And you can roll your eyes and say what you want, but LR games are one of the big reasons for the support we have around this state. My parents didn't give a aMm about the hogs, but a friend took me to a LR game. Now I donate to two sports and make as many trips as I can. It matters, and in 30 years if it becomes the U of NWA there will be more issues with the institution as a whole than just filling up football stadiums.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 07:26:54 AM
I'd still like to see a WMS apologist address the disadvantage of playing there from a recruiting standpoint...
http://www.arkansassports360.com/29157/staggs-war-memorial-commission-working-to-keep-two-razorback-games-in-little-rock (http://www.arkansassports360.com/29157/staggs-war-memorial-commission-working-to-keep-two-razorback-games-in-little-rock)

Evidently, that's going to be the "company" line to justify moving the LSU game to Fayetteville in 2012. 

Quote
A decision appears to already have been made to not keep the LSU game in Little Rock. Though Long and the school have not announced it will move back to Fayetteville, the “Battle For The Golden Boot” appears headed to Northwest Arkansas.

Sources tell us that Arkansas requested only the Ole Miss (Oct. 27) and Kentucky (Oct. 13) dates be held for the stadium’s SEC game. Louisiana-Monroe will be the non-conference game played in Little Rock.

Reasons for moving the game include a bigger venue, the advantage of hosting recruits on campus for the biggest game of the year and more space to work for national television crews.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 09, 2012, 07:28:36 AM
I'd still like to see a WMS apologist address the disadvantage of playing there from a recruiting standpoint...
http://www.arkansassports360.com/29157/staggs-war-memorial-commission-working-to-keep-two-razorback-games-in-little-rock (http://www.arkansassports360.com/29157/staggs-war-memorial-commission-working-to-keep-two-razorback-games-in-little-rock)

Evidently, that's going to be the "company" line to justify moving the LSU game to Fayetteville in 2012.

We can't host recruits in Dallas, either. Yet most around here seem to think that's good for recruiting.

And we can host recruits for one game.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: chittlins on February 09, 2012, 07:51:08 AM
We can't host recruits in Dallas, either. Yet most around here seem to think that's good for recruiting.

And we can host recruits for one game.

You can host a recruit at LR for one game on an unofficial. We can not give kids officials(expense paid) there. Why would we? You can't sell our campus or facilities. Thank goodness the LSU game is coming home.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 07:52:26 AM
If low standards isn't wanting the vast majority of our fans to skip tailgating, yawn on the way to the game, and leave at halftime of a November rent-a-win, when we could have 100,000 people tailgating and an excited crowd, all in our state's center and population base, then yeah, I have low fricking standards.

Hyperbole, much?  I live pretty far away now, but I've managed to attend the Alabama game in 2010 and the Auburn game in 2011.  Prior to that, the most electric atmospheres had been Texas in 04 and Tennessee in 06.  But Bama/Auburn just KILLED those atmospheres.  And they were ABSOLUTELY more electric than anything I've experienced in LR (I've been to 8 games in LR over a period of about 10 years).   I wasn't fortunate enough to have been there for either of the miracle games, though. 

Anyway, your problem seems to be that you think the football program is there to support the fans when it's the other way around.  Just because it's not as easy to get drunk and hit on some poon from El Dorado doesn't mean you CAN'T tailgate in Fayetteville.  I've never understood that.  It's almost exactly the same as your argument about WMS.  Is tailgating in Fayetteville as accomodating for tailgating, or as wide open? No.  Does that mean that you CAN'T have a good time while tailgating in what is actually available? NO!

Also, why do you bring up the state "population" center?  Is support for the UofA contingent upon us lifting our skirts to appease that population center?  Because that's what every WMS supporter ALWAYS seems to insinuate. 

You're the one that's delusional, and too fricking lazy to be bothered with progress or taking pride in the program. You'd rather roll out of bed and drink your mimosa and get to the game 30 minutes before kickoff, for a game you probably would flip back and forth on TV if it was paired against a big SEC game, than continue to give that shitty game to a part of the state that is one of the big reasons for the success of the program today. You're the lazy and emotional one, that's pretty clear.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't LR have a hard time selling out for one of those "shitty" games they covet so much? This year...

The problem isn't with LR fans not being willing to "change," and this bullshit caraciture you like to parrot. In fact, the reason I want LR games is so we won't be the worst. Because if the university is regionalized in 30 years, or god forbid something crazy happens like Gus does turn ASU in to Boise of the south, I don't want to see abunch of other gear around LR besides Razorback gear.

You. have. got. to. be. kidding. me.   Have you been to Jonesboro?  Infrastructure alone, they're about 50 years behind the UofA in terms of athletics.  We've probably spent more on renovations to our major facilities in the last decade or 2 than they've ever spent TOTAL.  Do you honestly think that talented AR kids are going to choose to play in the Sun Belt, in crappy facilities, if they had an opportunity to go to Arkansas?  Do you think Arkansas is THAT PATHETIC that it would take 30 years for an also-ran to all of the sudden start pulling a significant part of our fandom away from us?

Well, hell, no wonder you want to keep the games in LR.  You're terrified that our program, as shitty as it evidently is, is in serious danger of falling victim to the ever expanding fallacy of Gus Malzahn's awesomeness. 

Grow some fucking balls.  You seem to have been to a lot of SEC towns/venues.  Do you think SO LITTLE of the UofA that you HONESTLY think we'd become less relevant because of a fucking Sun Belt team?  Give me a fucking break. 

So many Arkansas people make fun of Texas (my home state).  But you know what.  TX has major universities scattered across a vast region.  And every school has die hard fans in every region.  A&M doesn't try to play games in San Antonio so they won't lose some of their fan base to Texas.  Texas doesn't play some of their games in Houston so they can try to steal some A&M fans.  The schools have enough fucking confidence in their own worth that they don't feel the need to get down on their knees for some pussies who are too fickle to pick a team/school and stick with it.  Which, evidently, is an epidemic that's on the verge of overflowing through Arkansas if we took games away from LR.


And you can roll your eyes and say what you want, but LR games are one of the big reasons for the support we have around this state. My parents didn't give a aMm about the hogs, but a friend took me to a LR game. Now I donate to two sports and make as many trips as I can. It matters, and in 30 years if it becomes the U of NWA there will be more issues with the institution as a whole than just filling up football stadiums.

I don't doubt that LR played a HUGE roll in making AR what it has become.  NO DOUBT.  But times, they are a changing.  Good for you that you had a friend take you to game.  Myself, like a ton of our students from other states and NOT from Central Arkansas?  We went to the U of A because it's special.  I didn't need to attend a football game.  And going to the games now is BEYOND overrated in terms of developing a kinship for a program.  It was important to play games in LR when all you had was radio, shitty roads, and no lights.  All of that has changed. 

Every non-sentimental reason for playing in LR has evaporated.  If LR were truly serious about keeping games there, they'd be more proactive.  You can't sit around twiddling your thumbs while RRS keeps expanding.  At some point you have to say, "well, eventually RRS is going to get even nicer than it already is.  How about we start expanding?"  You can't keep waiting for RRS to expand/improve and come back a year or 2 later and have a reactionary, half-assed expansion in LR.  That, to me, says that WMS isn't committed to helping the program. That, to me, says that WMS will do the bare minimum it takes to keep the games in LR.  Nothing more, nothing less.

The University of Arkansas, in Fayetteville, will always be the University of Arkansas.  They earned that right.  Shut the fuck up with your petty UofNWA shit.  If LR was so goddamn wonderful they would have opened up their pockets in the first place and you could have your version of utopia. But that shit DIDN'T fucking happen, did it?  NOPE.  So stop being a fucking cunt. 

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 07:56:12 AM
We can't host recruits in Dallas, either. Yet most around here seem to think that's good for recruiting.

And we can host recruits for one game.

Because people realize 2 things:
1) Dallas payed us $5MM per game.  LR costs us, at last public estimate, $2MM per game. Someone correct me if I'm wrong...
2) We can't host recruits for official visits.  You may not know this, but the demographics from which we recruit aren't typically financially secure enough to make that trip unless they're in LR already.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 09, 2012, 08:07:37 AM
Hyperbole, much?  I live pretty far away now, but I've managed to attend the Alabama game in 2010 and the Auburn game in 2011.  Prior to that, the most electric atmospheres had been Texas in 04 and Tennessee in 06.  But Bama/Auburn just KILLED those atmospheres.  And they were ABSOLUTELY more electric than anything I've experienced in LR (I've been to 8 games in LR over a period of about 10 years).   I wasn't fortunate enough to have been there for either of the miracle games, though. 

Anyway, your problem seems to be that you think the football program is there to support the fans when it's the other way around.  Just because it's not as easy to get drunk and hit on some poon from El Dorado doesn't mean you CAN'T tailgate in Fayetteville.  I've never understood that.  It's almost exactly the same as your argument about WMS.  Is tailgating in Fayetteville as accomodating for tailgating, or as wide open? No.  Does that mean that you CAN'T have a good time while tailgating in what is actually available? NO!

Also, why do you bring up the state "population" center?  Is support for the UofA contingent upon us lifting our skirts to appease that population center?  Because that's what every WMS supporter ALWAYS seems to insinuate. 

Reading comprehension, much? I wasn't talking about the big games. I was talking about the shitty games in the beginning of the year and sandwiched in between SEC games late in the year. Fayetteville > LR for big games. No doubt. But if you don't think LR > Fayeteville for rent-a-wins, your'e crazy.

Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't LR have a hard time selling out for one of those "shitty" games they covet so much? This year...

Tickets were held until 24 hours before kickoff for season ticket packages and then dumped on the market with zero notification. The unsold tickets were where my season tickets are. Never been an empty seat there, even during the Nutt years. That one wasn't on the fans.

Quote
You. have. got. to. be. kidding. me.   Have you been to Jonesboro?  Infrastructure alone, they're about 50 years behind the UofA in terms of athletics.  We've probably spent more on renovations to our major facilities in the last decade or 2 than they've ever spent TOTAL.  Do you honestly think that talented AR kids are going to choose to play in the Sun Belt, in crappy facilities, if they had an opportunity to go to Arkansas?  Do you think Arkansas is THAT PATHETIC that it would take 30 years for an also-ran to all of the sudden start pulling a significant part of our fandom away from us?


You're proving my point. Only one other state in the country where it is unimaginable the WHOLE state wouldn't support one program. I like it that way. 30 years from now, a lot can change. Hell, 30 years ago, we were playing 4 games in LR and 2 or 3 in Fayetteville because Fayetteville's stadium was so shitty and had no lights.

See, a lot can change in 30 years, no?

Quote
So many Arkansas people make fun of Texas (my home state).  But you know what.  TX has major universities scattered across a vast region.  And every school has die hard fans in every region.  A&M doesn't try to play games in San Antonio so they won't lose some of their fan base to Texas.  Texas doesn't play some of their games in Houston so they can try to steal some A&M fans.  The schools have enough fricking confidence in their own worth that they don't feel the need to get down on their knees for some putheys who are too fickle to pick a team/school and stick with it.  Which, evidently, is an epidemic that's on the verge of overflowing through Arkansas if we took games away from LR.


So what did A&M do with us? Why does UGA try to play in ATL every year?

That said, you hit on it when you said "die hard fans in every region." I prefer not to see regions in this state, but whatever.

Quote
I don't doubt that LR played a HUGE roll in making AR what it has become.  NO DOUBT.  But times, they are a changing.  Good for you that you had a friend take you to game.  Myself, like a ton of our students from other states and NOT from Central Arkansas?  We went to the U of A because it's special.  I didn't need to attend a football game.  And going to the games now is BEYOND overrated in terms of developing a kinship for a program.  It was important to play games in LR when all you had was radio, shitty roads, and no lights.  All of that has changed.
 

If all that's changed, what was the importance with the Dallas game?

Quote
The University of Arkansas, in Fayetteville, will always be the University of Arkansas.  They earned that right.  Shut the frick up with your petty UofNWA aMm.  If LR was so It's time to admit that jet fuel can't melt steel beams, damn wonderful they would have opened up their pockets in the first place and you could have your version of utopia. But that aMm DIDN'T fricking happen, did it?  NOPE.  So stop being a fricking wizard sleeve.

More ignorant shit. Yeah, it's in Fayetteville. And I love that, but it doesn't have some god-given right to everyone's loyalty in this state. LR games have gone a long way to develop that, and yes, believe it or not, things change, and one day that might not be the case. Again, not sure why giving up rent-a-wins that the Crowd will roll in late, leave early, and flip around on TV if they watch it from LR is such a terroristic stance by those of us that want Arkasnas to remain rabid for the Hogs. It's more about your laziness that YOU don't want to drive to LR for a game, you'd rather roll out and catch the first 2 quarters and get back home to watch the Bama/LSU game. And what for? to destroy 60 years of tradition and kill something that has been such a big part of the program? Okay.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 09, 2012, 08:09:59 AM
Because people realize 2 things:
1) Dallas payed us $5MM per game.  LR costs us, at last public estimate, $2MM per game. Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

Last public estimate? Cite it.

Between the $10 surcharge on every Little Rock ticket (approaches $600k/game) and the discount we get from LA Monroe, it's not near that number. We also get a second set of donations with the RSVP, so it's not nearly that big. Probably more in the $1 mil range.


Quote
2) We can't host recruits for official visits.  You may not know this, but the demographics from which we recruit aren't typically financially secure enough to make that trip unless they're in LR already.

Unmitigated bullshit, so hundreds can drive to Fayetteville for unofficials but there's some kind of magic toll that makes it cost-prohibitive in LR?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 08:32:45 AM
Last public estimate? Cite it.

Between the $10 surcharge on every Little Rock ticket (approaches $600k/game) and the discount we get from LA Monroe, it's not near that number. We also get a second set of donations with the RSVP, so it's not nearly that big. Probably more in the $1 mil range.

It was back before the last contract renewal.  And I don't have time to go back and research it. But that was the last dollar figure that was attached to it.  The U of A loses a lot of money on concessions alone.  But for argument's sake, let's say $1mm/game.  That's a loss of $2mm per year just by playing in LR. 

Playing in Dallas got us more exposure in a Big12 state, but it also paid us a helluva lot of money.  That $5MM erases the impact playing in LR had on our books.

Unmitigated bullshit, so hundreds can drive to Fayetteville for unofficials but there's some kind of magic toll that makes it cost-prohibitive in LR?

Ummm...we're not talking about unofficials? We're talking about official visits.  Official visit = no cost to the student athlete and 1 parent/guardian (i think it's 1).  Unofficial visit = we can get you in the game for free. 

So let's say the #1 linebacker in the country just happens to have a bye week during his senior year.  We've been recruiting him, but having little success in getting him to give us a further look.  But kid says, "man - arkansas is playing this weekend. I have the weekend off.  Hell, why not. I'll see if I can get down there and check them out." Of course, said fictional kid would have to pay for his own travel for that LR game.  So kid says, "what the hell? Why can't you pay? Every other school does."  I mean, it's not that far fetched. 

Evidently the athletic department feels like it's too big of an issue to ignore, hence moving the LSU game back to campus. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 09, 2012, 08:43:45 AM


Ummm...we're not talking about unofficials? We're talking about official visits.  Official visit = no cost to the student athlete and 1 parent/guardian (i think it's 1).  Unofficial visit = we can get you in the game for free. 

So let's say the #1 linebacker in the country just happens to have a bye week during his senior year.  We've been recruiting him, but having little success in getting him to give us a further look.  But kid says, "man - arkansas is playing this weekend. I have the weekend off.  Starkville, why not. I'll see if I can get down there and check them out." Of course, said fictional kid would have to pay for his own travel for that LR game.  So kid says, "what the Starkville? Why can't you pay? Every other school does."  I mean, it's not that far fetched. 

Evidently the athletic department feels like it's too big of an issue to ignore, hence moving the LSU game back to campus.
Since when does a stud player take an offical visit to a cupcake game vs ULM in LR or Eastern Michigan in Fayetteville?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: geohul on February 09, 2012, 09:02:12 AM
So let's say the #1 linebacker in the country just happens to have a bye week during his senior year.  We've been recruiting him, but having little success in getting him to give us a further look.  But kid says, "man - arkansas is playing this weekend. I have the weekend off.  Hell, why not. I'll see if I can get down there and check them out." Of course, said fictional kid would have to pay for his own travel for that LR game.  So kid says, "what the hell? Why can't you pay? Every other school does."  I mean, it's not that far fetched. 
This is the only argument that needed to be made.  LR apologists should ask themselves if they would rather host a big time recruit at WMS or RRS.  The whole fucking point of the FOC is so we have a shiny new venue to show off to recruits that is on par with others in the SEC in terms of dressing rooms and places for the team to relax during off time.  How in the hell are we supposed to show that off from Little Rock?  My nephew is currently a junior OL in the state of Alabama.  He was at Bama for Junior Day when Tenpenny committed.  He has sent me pictures of their locker room and players lounge.  Holy Shit.  If Tenpenny's only exposure to the Razorbacks are the 2 times a year we play in WMS then no fucking wonder he chose Bama when he saw their facilities.  Have any of you LR apologists been in the locker rooms at WMS?  Pathetic. 

Every game we're down there we lose money.  We are giving up 2 home games a year that we could be using to recruit and show off our facilities.  RRS holds 20k more people.  Those are 3 well thought out reasons to move the games to RRS. 

VS.

Quote from: Denny Crane
It's worked for 60 years.
  I appreciate all of the years where LR was the better venue.  I acknowledge it's history and roll in making the Razorbacks what we are today.  That being said it's not 1960 anymore.  It's time to do the right thing for this program and move all of the game to RRS. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Tim Calhoun on February 09, 2012, 09:03:56 AM
Lots of University of Northwest Arkansas sentiment in here, taking a DC politics style approach to the rhetoric.

1) Tailgating ain't near what it is in LR. I love to tailgate in Fayetteville, got a great spot, and it's come a long ways....but let's be real. Rolling into the pit two hours before kickoff and trying not to run over the other late arriving tailgaters in the mass of pedestrians around player walk through ain't getting it done.

2) The ignorant aMm about WMS being a dump doesn't do anything, other than prove that you haven't been anywhere else other than RRS. Other than its size, WMS is pretty much exactly like most other major stadiums around this country. Most stadiums are huge concrete and steel structures designed to house 80,000 people for 3 hours....with nice areas for 5-10,000 fans to primp and act like they care about football as they play grabass.

3) Bama '10 was a special atmosphere. So was Auburn '11. Above and beyond what you could get in WMS. But that's not the point. The vast majority of the LR crowd has conceded those big games. Give LR two games, including a decent non-con like Tulsa, and let them expand the stadium and people will be happy. Fayetteville gets all the big games, and all the conference games, and doesn't have <60,000 people for a mid-November cupcake in poor weather. 

4) Giving away a home game to Dallas, now against someone most likely along the lines of Texas Tech, while pulling games from the city that supported the university for over 60 years ain't gonna fly. THAT will piss some people off.

5) And here is the most important point. We are as successful and strong as a program since when we won the national title in the '60's. That's great, and I never thought I'd see it during the Hootie years. But, I still looked up with a top 10 team playing an SEC game against a name opponent (Tennessee), and saw full empty sections in the corners of the upper deck. We had ONE game that was chock full this year -- Auburn. There were all kinds of seats for the non-con games.

And that's when we are in the top 10 in the strongest conference in the country with a coach that is treated like a god and the most exciting product on the field anywhere in college football. What happens when we have a down year? And we are 6-6, and we have 48,000 people in that big stadium for a game against LA-Monroe? And then 56,000 the next week for Vandy?

That's when you're going to need the LR games -- not now, not at the zenith of our program in the last 40 years.



All that said....none of this stuff will come down to what you or I post on a message board or really even football. This will play out at the highest levels of state politics, and if WMS is willing to add some more suites and 5,000 or so more seats, I fully expect there to be a completely reasonable compromise met. One that includes all conference games in Fayetteville, and two non-con games in LR with one being the Tulsa, Memphis, etc. of the group.


You made some good points but I'm confused.  You say 48 in Fay and then 56 in LR but yet didn't even sell out in LR this year during the "zenith."  So that point has to be thrown out. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 09:06:03 AM
Reading comprehension, much? I wasn't talking about the big games. I was talking about the shitty games in the beginning of the year and sandwiched in between SEC games late in the year. Fayetteville > LR for big games. No doubt. But if you don't think LR > Fayeteville for rent-a-wins, your'e crazy.

I must be crazy. Because even for those rent-a-wins, we can still pack in 20,000 more people.  10,000 more father and son afternoons of football get to happen in Fayetteville for those rent-a-wins.  And don't give me this, "LR is always raucous for EVERY game" nonsense. I know better.  I had to go to every LR for 2 years with the band. I've seen first hand how miserable LR fans AND Fayetteville fans can be.  I've seen first hand LSU come into LR and managed to be louder with 3,000 fans than we were with 50,000.  I've seen LR fans sitting on their hands for an LSU game.  I know there were people that left early for both the UNM and MSU games.  Don't act like LR is immune to disinterest once a game is out of hand, or if we're playing a subpar opponent.  LSU fans, regarded as being some of the rowdiest in the world, do the same goddamn thing.

Tickets were held until 24 hours before kickoff for season ticket packages and then dumped on the market with zero notification. The unsold tickets were where my season tickets are. Never been an empty seat there, even during the Hootie years. That one wasn't on the fans.

Link?
 
You're proving my point. Only one other state in the country where it is unimaginable the WHOLE state wouldn't support one program. I like it that way. 30 years from now, a lot can change. Starkville, 30 years ago, we were playing 4 games in LR and 2 or 3 in Fayetteville because Fayetteville's stadium was so shitty and had no lights.



See, a lot can change in 30 years, no?
Do you sleep with a shotgun at your bedside?  It sounds like a miserable life...living in such fear.

30 years ago the Hogs were the best team in Arkansas.  30 years later the Hogs will be the best team in Arkansas.  30 years later, the Hogs will be the only team that consistently plays against the best teams in college football.  30 years later, the Hogs will be the only team in Arkansas that plays in a "BCS" level conference.  Unless you think ASU will magically start appearing on TV every weekend, I don't see how ANOTHER team, in ANOTHER secluded region is going to draw away our fans. 

Do you realize how RIDICULOUS you sound? I mean, I know it's not just you.  There are a lot of people in Arkansas that share your sentiment.  We'll call them...pussies.  You see, these pussies claim that the UofA is awesome and they love the UofA.  But these same pussies also fear that the equivalent of UT-San Antonio  is going to come up from the dregs and start pulling away fan support.  Imagine that.  Imagine how hard we would laugh at A&M if they were scared they'd lose Aggie fans to UTSA. 


 
So what did A&M do with us? Why does UGA try to play in ATL every year?

You think A&M played a game in Dallas with us because they were trying to, what, get more recruiting exposure? Or appease their Dallas area fans? Or do you think they were lured by $5MM/year? And in both of those scenarios, just as many fans can enter the gates as their home field.  They're not giving up 20,000 butts in the seats.


That said, you hit on it when you said "die hard fans in every region." I prefer not to see regions in this state, but whatever.

Stop being a pussy.  Stop living in fear.  Arkansas has always been the flagship and will always be the flagship university of the state of arkansas.  How many LR fans do you think we lost when we cut back from 3 games to 2 games per year?  Did you notice any drop?  The athletic department seems to be doing just fine these days. Fact of the matter is, there are TN fans in east arkansas. They are OM fans in SE AR.  There are LSU fans. There are Bama fans.

Our threat isn't ASU.  Our threat is an ever improving conference and fans within the state (Tenpenny) having just as much TV access to watch other SEC programs as they do Arkansas. 


If all that's changed, what was the importance with the Dallas game?

Is this a serious question? Arkansas gets plenty of exposure within AR whether we play in LR or Fayetteville from week to week.  Be it NWA, Texarkana, LR, etc.  But Arkansas doesn't GET coverage in TX outside of a box score.  TX is infinitely more important from a recruiting perspective than any other state from which we recruit.  Playing in Dallas is important because we recruit TX hard. 

Not to mention, playing in Dallas doesn't cost us $1mm/game.  And even if it did, it would still make more sense than playing in LR.  Arkansas athletes know about AR regardless.  TX athletes don't know about AR.  The fact that we were making $5mm was just a cherry on top.

More ignorant aMm. Yeah, it's in Fayetteville. And I love that, but it doesn't have some god-given right to everyone's loyalty in this state. LR games have gone a long way to develop that, and yes, believe it or not, things change, and one day that might not be the case. Again, not sure why giving up rent-a-wins that the Crowd will roll in late, leave early, and flip around on TV if they watch it from LR is such a terroristic stance by those of us that want Arkasnas to remain rabid for the Hogs. It's more about your laziness that YOU don't want to drive to LR for a game, you'd rather roll out and catch the first 2 quarters and get back home to watch the Bama/LSU game. And what for? to destroy 60 years of tradition and kill something that has been such a big part of the program? Okay.

I never said the UofA has the right to ANYONE'S loyalty.  I don't care if you're in Texarkana or Springdale.  Cheer for whoever you want to cheer for.  In my humble opinion, the U of A has every other school in the state beat by a country mile in terms of tradition, prestige, facilities, etc.  You keep talking about us throwing away tradition, having crappy tailgating, etc, etc.  Okay. What's your alternative? ASU? What tradition does ASU have with the rest of the state? How's ASU's tailgating?  Take away LR games and yes, some people will be disappointed.  But what is their alternative? They can either realize that it was a necessary move given the times, get over it, and continue to support the team they've supporter their entire lives...or they can go tailgate at ASU.  Tough choice.  Then again, I'm not a butthurt little vagina.

Oh. And it's always been closer for me to go to LR games since I graduated.  But I have always preferred the ones in Fayetteville.  I live in NYC. I don't live in Fayetteville.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 09:10:27 AM
Since when does a stud player take an offical visit to a cupcake game vs ULM in LR or Eastern Michigan in Fayetteville?

It's never happened because in LR because it's technically impossible.  And I'm not saying it's happened in Fayetteville. My memory's not good enough.  But the question should be, "Could it happen?"  Could Arkansas risk alienating a recruit because we can't accommodate him for an official visit on the only weekend this fictional recruit might could make it to campus? Recruits win football games.  Drunk 17 year olds do not.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Clark on February 09, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
The argument of hanging on to the old ways and fear of empty seats in Fayetteville is exactly the kind of small time inferiority thinking much of our state is accustomed to. At what point do we start thinking enough of ourselves so we can change perceptions of the outside?

With the rapid growth of NWA, those vendors and move ins are raising more children up there that will become Razorback fans. More students equates to more alumni.

Play one game per year down there. Every other year play a weaker conference opponent.

I think it's time for our fan base to grow up and put their big boy pants on. It's time to expand to 80k and have 83-85k in Fayetteville. More Fayetteville games means more money not only from ticket revenues, but from increased concessions and an even bigger priority on higher level donation items like luxury boxes and club seating.

Our program may have laid its foundation with LR games, but what did that really get us when we got to the SEC? Houston Nutt Undefeated In The Rock T-Shirts?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 09, 2012, 10:21:25 AM
I think at the MINIMUM, there should be 1 non-con game in LR every other year.

I think a lot of the NWA base of fans doesn't realize the power of the LR media in terms of dealing with the whole state.


No, Ole Miss or Miss State isn't going to come in and steal fans.... but over time, without throwing the KATV's and KTHV's a bone every year or so... this "one state, one team" mentality would slowly erode. If someone wants to argue that's okay, then so be it. I'm not going to spit hyperbole and proselytize whether it is or not. I just think it would change our identity.

The Dallas games have been fun, no doubt. I'd like to do them again.
But if the issue becomes Cowboys Stadium or WMS...  what's the more important issue, our program's identity that we all know and love, or national exposure? It's not for any of us to decide unfortunately, and this is something Long may live or die by.

ALL the big games should be in RRS... but when you argue that we should never play in WMS again... I just don't agree.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 10:27:47 AM
No amount of posturing by the slapdick Arkansas media will make up for what kids/families see on Saturdays from ESPN/CBS.  If some LR station starts pimping ASU, do you think that'll actually fly? SERIOUSLY? Arkansas fans will be like, "O, my sweet, girthy, endowèd provider of penis!! That dude from the 10:00 news TOTALLY convinced me that I should drive to Jonesboro and check out all the wonderful things that are happening up there.  And I'll TOTALLY not have to worry about parking, because no one will fucking BE THERE."

Jesus Christ. 

"Well we can't fire Houston Nutt.  Who are we going to get that's better than him?"

Living in fear.  It's the Arkansas way.  We're just not good enough to expect to attract our own fans.  We need gimmicks that no other school in the country needs. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 09, 2012, 10:32:21 AM
No amount of posturing by the slapdick Arkansas media will make up for what kids/families see on Saturdays from ESPN/CBS.  If some LR station starts pimping ASU, do you think that'll actually fly? SERIOUSLY? Arkansas fans will be like, "O, my sweet, girthy, endowèd provider of penis!! That dude from the 10:00 news TOTALLY convinced me that I should drive to Jonesboro and check out all the wonderful things that are happening up there.  And I'll TOTALLY not have to worry about parking, because no one will fricking BE THERE."

Jesus Christ. 

"Well we can't fire Hootie.  Who are we going to get that's better than him?"

Living in fear.  It's the Arkansas way.  We're just not good enough to expect to attract our own fans.  We need gimmicks that no other school in the country needs.

Yeah, go see where I EVER supported Houston.

You missed my entire freaking point though. That media exposure is constant on stations that air local news across 85% of the state.
When you take away ALL of the WMS games, the U of A exposure on those stations WILL fade over time. Not immediate. It's a fact.
I don't think stAte or UCA or anyone like that will ever just change over fans in LR. I'm talking about areas like SW and SE Ark, where Arkansas Razorbacks is all anyone ever knows. Over time, that identity in those places will fade.

I'm not saying I'm even scared of that. It's not even my issue to decide. And it may take more than 15-20 years to happen, but it would.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 09, 2012, 10:32:53 AM
I'm ok with 1 game per year in Little Rock.

I'm ok with every other year that being a Mississippi (take your pick), rotated with ULM.  I still think we should send Mizzou down there just to haze them.

I'm not ok with sending LSU there every other year, and I'm not ok with sending two games per year there perpetually.

Shit, sign a contract for one game per season there for 10 years.  I'm ok with that.

Fayetteville attendance might actually improve if people had to come to the Hill to see a good game.  If those people aren't coming to Fayetteville now, I don't see the big deal in them continuing to not come to Fayetteville for games.  Same result, right? 

Eastern and Southern Arkansas continue to lose population and it continues to shift to the north and west.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 09, 2012, 10:34:00 AM
I'm ok with 1 game per year in Little Rock.

I'm ok with every other year that being a Mississippi (take your pick), rotated with ULM.  I still think we should send Mizzou down there just to haze them.

I'm not ok with sending LSU there every other year, and I'm not ok with sending two games per year there perpetually.

aMm, sign a contract for one game per season there for 10 years.  I'm ok with that.

Fayetteville attendance might actually improve if people had to come to the Hill to see a good game.  If those people aren't coming to Fayetteville now, I don't see the big deal in them continuing to not come to Fayetteville for games.  Same result, right? 

Eastern and Southern Arkansas continue to lose population and it continues to shift to the north and west.

Agreed completely.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Rob on February 09, 2012, 10:38:18 AM
I'm ok with 1 game per year in Little Rock.

I'm ok with every other year that being a Mississippi (take your pick), rotated with ULM.  I still think we should send Mizzou down there just to haze them.

I'm not ok with sending LSU there every other year, and I'm not ok with sending two games per year there perpetually.

Shit, sign a contract for one game per season there for 10 years.  I'm ok with that.

Fayetteville attendance might actually improve if people had to come to the Hill to see a good game.  If those people aren't coming to Fayetteville now, I don't see the big deal in them continuing to not come to Fayetteville for games.  Same result, right? 

Eastern and Southern Arkansas continue to lose population and it continues to shift to the north and west.

Every game is on TV.  Different that 20-30 years ago when you had to go to a game to see it live.  1 Game in Little Rock,  move on.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 09, 2012, 10:41:18 AM
Every game is on TV. 

I started to put this in my post but forgot.  Anybody who wants to watch Arkansas does already.  If a kid's family can't afford a TV, then odds are slim he would ever make it to a LR game.

And if that's an issue, how about pony up some funds to ship a busload of disadvantaged kids to Fayetteville for a game that might not sell out?  You might wind up with more kids from LR exposed to games that way.

That's a helluva lot more sustainable than shipping a team, cheerleaders and band to Little Rock twice a year.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HipHog on February 09, 2012, 10:42:35 AM
 i agree with having non conf games in LR, that shit doesnt bother me as long as there is games here to see. I do find it funny that there is talk about expanding rrs when it doesnt sell out now. Talk about wasting money on LR games....
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 09, 2012, 10:46:58 AM
Questions I don't have the answer to but will toss out:

1. If you pull 2 games out of LR this will cost the season ticket holders in Fayetteville and extra $500 per year for a family of 4. Would you lose season ticket holders because of this extra ticket money needed to be forked out for 2 scrub games?

B. How many season ticket holders in Fayetteville also have LR season tickets and vice-versa? Folks with only LR season tickets obviously wouldn't get season tickets to Fayetteville or they already would. Can that lost revenue be made up?

Threve. Answer The Call has seperate LR and Fayetteville donations. Pulling out of LR would set back those donations. Would the donation levels increase in Fayetteville? Would season tickets holders in both places use the extra money saved from the LR Answer The Call to subsidize the extra ticket cost for Fayetteville?

IV. I understand putting in some suites etc if there is a call for them at RRS but what I don't understand is calling for the stadium to increase capacity to 83-85K when there was a top 10 matchup last year with USC-E that didn't even sell out with 75K.

Look, I live 10 minutes from WMS. I only have LR season tickets these days after giving up my RRS tickets 4 years ago when my daughter was born to save money. Now I have a 4 year old and a 3 month old. I know there is no way I can afford season tickets to Fayetteville + the Answer The Call fee. I've still made at least 1 game per year at RRS with my wife and daughter and will continue to do so.  At the same time, if LR games are moved my money in ticket sales and donations will be lost by the UA. I expect I'm not nearly alone in this scenario.

I still think all SEC games should be at RRS but to pull all the games seems like a gamble that could backfire when times aren't as good as they are right now. Of course I could be totally off base.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: chittlins on February 09, 2012, 10:54:20 AM
i agree with having non conf games in LR, that shit doesnt bother me as long as there is games here to see. I do find it funny that there is talk about expanding rrs when it doesnt sell out now. Talk about wasting money on LR games....

You mean the same kind of funny that happened the last time they expanded RRS.

The kind of seating they want in the NEZ is actually in demand. It may free up some better bleacher seats and provide a revenue boost to keep the PO folks seats at or around the cheapest in the league. If the time comes for an addition of plain Jane bleacher seats they have the top of the SEZ to accomplish that with. The expansion proposed is very modest but geared to meet demand.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 11:09:41 AM
Yeah, go see where I EVER supported Houston.

You missed my entire freaking point though. That media exposure is constant on stations that air local news across 85% of the state.
When you take away ALL of the WMS games, the U of A exposure on those stations WILL fade over time. Not immediate. It's a fact.
I don't think stAte or UCA or anyone like that will ever just change over fans in LR. I'm talking about areas like SW and SE Ark, where Arkansas Razorbacks is all anyone ever knows. Over time, that identity in those places will fade.

I'm not saying I'm even scared of that. It's not even my issue to decide. And it may take more than 15-20 years to happen, but it would.

The Nutt thing is just similar to the irrational fear some of you have.  I don't understand any of it.  I see the U of A for what it is.  The thousands of kids from other states do the same thing.  But if you're from Arkansas, for some reason, you think it's not good enough on it's own merits.  For some reason, you think we'd lose fans/recruits to ASU, UCA, Ole Miss, Memphis, etc.  Well, if you honestly think those schools are threats then I can see your concern.  But I don't see it that way.  I have more pride in the UofA, I guess.

I understand your point about local market exposure.  But do you really think most people are turning to the 10 o'clock news to catch 4 minutes of sports more than once or twice a week? Or do you think most people get most of their sports news from ESPN?  And it's not "a fact" that U of A exposure would fade.  If you saw the UofA like I do, you would have no fear that the state would abandon fandom at the drop of a bucket.  And if you don't fear a loss of fans, you don't expect the media to ignore the wants of the local market.  So, basically, it still boils down to why you think we'd lose fans.

Those people in SE and SW Arkansas have televisions, by the way. There are Razorback fans all over the country that can't make it to games in LR, Fayetteville, or Dallas.  But thanks to this wonderful invention called the television, they can still keep that connection going from thousands of miles away.

It took Arkansas 20 years to have the kind of success we're just now having in the SEC.  But in another 20 or 30 years, the closest schools to LR/SW/SE Arkansas will surpass us to the point where our program would go down the shitter. 

Look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if you really think Arkansas will still be playing games in LR in 100 years.  In 50 years.  In 20 years. In 10 years?  If your answer is "no" to any of those time buckets, then what's the point in waiting.  Get it over with and start a new tradition of supporting the hogs with no caveats.  Start a new tradition free of ultimatums.  But if we wait 10 or 20 years to do something, spend millions of dollars on WMS, millions of dollars on RRS, and organically it becomes a necessity to move all of the games, all we did was prolong something that should have been done now.  Stop throwing bad money after good.  Stop having 2 when 1 will suffice.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HipHog on February 09, 2012, 11:09:58 AM
You mean the same kind of funny that happened the last time they expanded RRS.

The kind of seating they want in the NEZ is actually in demand. It may free up some better bleacher seats and provide a revenue boost to keep the PO folks seats at or around the cheapest in the league. If the time comes for an addition of plain Jane bleacher seats they have the top of the SEZ to accomplish that with. The expansion proposed is very modest but geared to meet demand.
yea, that kind of funny. ya know the last time they expanded RRS and dont fill it up
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 11:11:59 AM
i agree with having non conf games in LR, that aMm doesnt bother me as long as there is games here to see. I do find it funny that there is talk about expanding rrs when it doesnt sell out now. Talk about wasting money on LR games....

I'd rather have a few empty seats for the Troy, New Mexico, and Ole Miss' of the world and 20,000 extra people available to watch a HUGE game, then to have 20,000 people outside the gates wishing they could get into a huge game.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: chittlins on February 09, 2012, 11:21:56 AM
yea, that kind of funny. ya know the last time they expanded RRS and dont fill it up

But it routinely holds 20,000 more than it did after the last folks questioned the need for expansion. That arguement no longer holds water. The UA can show the demand for what they want to put in and will.

Moving the LSU game is a great first step to ween the WMS folks off the LR tit.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 09, 2012, 11:33:38 AM
Questions I don't have the answer to but will toss out:

1. If you pull 2 games out of LR this will cost the season ticket holders in Fayetteville and extra $500 per year for a family of 4. Would you lose season ticket holders because of this extra ticket money needed to be forked out for 2 scrub games?

B. How many season ticket holders in Fayetteville also have LR season tickets and vice-versa? Folks with only LR season tickets obviously wouldn't get season tickets to Fayetteville or they already would. Can that lost revenue be made up?

Threve. Answer The Call has seperate LR and Fayetteville donations. Pulling out of LR would set back those donations. Would the donation levels increase in Fayetteville? Would season tickets holders in both places use the extra money saved from the LR Answer The Call to subsidize the extra ticket cost for Fayetteville?

IV. I understand putting in some suites etc if there is a call for them at RRS but what I don't understand is calling for the stadium to increase capacity to 83-85K when there was a top 10 matchup last year with USC-E that didn't even sell out with 75K.

Look, I live 10 minutes from WMS. I only have LR season tickets these days after giving up my RRS tickets 4 years ago when my daughter was born to save money. Now I have a 4 year old and a 3 month old. I know there is no way I can afford season tickets to Fayetteville + the Answer The Call fee. I've still made at least 1 game per year at RRS with my wife and daughter and will continue to do so.  At the same time, if LR games are moved my money in ticket sales and donations will be lost by the UA. I expect I'm not nearly alone in this scenario.

I still think all SEC games should be at RRS but to pull all the games seems like a gamble that could backfire when times aren't as good as they are right now. Of course I could be totally off base.

These are ALL issues that we should be discussing instead of the regular, same ol' hyperbole back and forth.

The Hootie thing is just similar to the irrational fear some of you have.  I don't understand any of it.  I see the U of A for what it is.  The thousands of kids from other states do the same thing.  But if you're from Arkansas, for some reason, you think it's not good enough on it's own merits.  For some reason, you think we'd lose fans/recruits to ASU, UCA, Ole Miss, Memphis, etc.  Well, if you honestly think those schools are threats then I can see your concern.  But I don't see it that way.  I have more pride in the UofA, I guess.

I understand your point about local market exposure.  But do you really think most people are turning to the 10 o'clock news to catch 4 minutes of sports more than once or twice a week? Or do you think most people get most of their sports news from ESPN?  And it's not "a fact" that U of A exposure would fade.  If you saw the UofA like I do, you would have no fear that the state would abandon fandom at the drop of a bucket.  And if you don't fear a loss of fans, you don't expect the media to ignore the wants of the local market.  So, basically, it still boils down to why you think we'd lose fans.

Those people in SE and SW Arkansas have televisions, by the way. There are Razorback fans all over the country that can't make it to games in LR, Fayetteville, or Dallas.  But thanks to this wonderful invention called the television, they can still keep that connection going from thousands of miles away.

It took Arkansas 20 years to have the kind of success we're just now having in the SEC.  But in another 20 or 30 years, the closest schools to LR/SW/SE Arkansas will surpass us to the point where our program would go down the shitter. 

Look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if you really think Arkansas will still be playing games in LR in 100 years.  In 50 years.  In 20 years. In 10 years?  If your answer is "no" to any of those time buckets, then what's the point in waiting.  Get it over with and start a new tradition of supporting the hogs with no caveats.  Start a new tradition free of ultimatums.  But if we wait 10 or 20 years to do something, spend millions of dollars on WMS, millions of dollars on RRS, and organically it becomes a necessity to move all of the games, all we did was prolong something that should have been done now.  Stop throwing bad money after good.  Stop having 2 when 1 will suffice.

Man, I'm sorry. I stopped reading after the first paragraph where you clearly didn't even read what I said.

It's not about losing fans to other schools. I'm talking about gaining new ones over time. I'm talking about losing the identity that we are "Arkansas' team." It wouldn't be immediate, but some of that mystique would fade over time.

Like someone else has already mentioned, I'm not sure how dramatic of a shift it would be with the population balance shifting west and north...  however, the LR media is perceived as "Arkansas' media." If Razorback PR and media buzz isn't getting shoved down your throat from an early age, it's not going to matter whether you can watch the games on TV or not... hell, from that aspect, if I'm 9 or 10 RIGHT NOW, what's to keep me from deciding I'm an Oregon fan and moving on from there? They're accessible from a TV stand point, too.

Obviously the WMS games aren't going to prevent that by themselves, but they play a major role in this entire state having that "Razorback identity" that pretty muck instills Razorback fandom into any Arkansan basically by birth.

You can call all of that fear and woe is me jargon and what-not if you want, it's a valid point. That mystique is what has always, to me, made this state and our program so unique. If you spend a lot of time here, you end up rooting for the Razorbacks. It's pretty fucking cool and I'd like to retain that as long as possible. Games in WMS DO play a role in that. More so than any game in Dallas. Not SEC games in WMS, not LSU games... just one non-con game. I'd even say every other year.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Aporkalypse_Now on February 09, 2012, 12:39:32 PM
But it routinely holds 20,000 more than it did after the last folks questioned the need for expansion. That arguement no longer holds water. The UA can show the demand for what they want to put in and will.

Moving the LSU game is a great first step to ween the WMS folks off the LR tit.

First step, huh?

I remember when there were 4 games in WMS and 3 in Fayetteville.  Flipping it the other way around a couple of decades ago was probably the first step.

Another big step was dropping WMS to 2 games.

Then swapping South Carolina for Miss State because it was a higher profile game.

I think moving LSU to Fayetteville isn't part of some grand and sinister plan, Petrino requested Long do it so that we could get a great home atmosphere and a big visit weekend.  I've heard that weekend after Thanksgiving has actually become a really big weekend for official visits now.


I don't know if the next step is moving all games out of WMS or going to just 1 game a year there, but we're a lot closer to the bottom of the staircase than the top of it.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 12:40:38 PM
It's not about losing fans to other schools. I'm talking about gaining new ones over time. I'm talking about losing the identity that we are "Arkansas' team." It wouldn't be immediate, but some of that mystique would fade over time.

But who would become Arkansas' team? Who would the Arkansas media, suddenly, begin to shove down our throats?  That's my point.  Just because we move 2 games, which only 110,000 people get to attend each year, I don't see how the entire sports culture of Arkansas would suddenly change. That isn't logical to me.

If Razorback PR and media buzz isn't getting shoved down your throat from an early age, it's not going to matter whether you can watch the games on TV or not... Starkville, from that aspect, if I'm 9 or 10 RIGHT NOW, what's to keep me from deciding I'm an Oregon fan and moving on from there? They're accessible from a TV stand point, too.

Exactly.  TV has made the whole proximity thing a moot point.  Look at the "stud" recruits we've lost the last few years.  They've had Razorback propaganda, so to speak, shoved down their throats for years. But that didn't keep them from looking elsewhere.  That's why it's important to improve the program.  If we continue to make RRS and the program a great representation of the state, more and more recruits will come. We'll get better.  We'll be more of a household name.  Maybe we'd lose a few Arkansas fans.  Maybe we gain some from Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, etc.  It works both ways, right? The U of A has record enrollment.  Those kids will have kids.  They'll go to hog games. That will continue. The university continues to expand. NWA continues to expand.  I just don't see our fan base shrinking as long as we keep investing in the program.

You can call all of that fear and woe is me jargon and what-not if you want, it's a valid point. That mystique is what has always, to me, made this state and our program so unique. If you spend a lot of time here, you end up rooting for the Razorbacks. It's pretty fricking cool and I'd like to retain that as long as possible. Games in WMS DO play a role in that. More so than any game in Dallas. Not SEC games in WMS, not LSU games... just one non-con game. I'd even say every other year.

We don't have to be unique to be successful.  In fact, we've been unique since 1964 and we've got nothing to show for it. But I'm perfectly fine with letting LR have 1 crappy non-con game a year, especially if it's against LA-Monroe and it doesn't count as a home game for us.  But they need to expand that stadium to fit at least 65-70,000 people. They need to stop charging the UofA to play there. They need to let the UofA run concessions. Those things would at least make playing there not seem like such a step down.  Who's going to foot the bill, though? Is Arkansas in such a state of financial superiority that it can afford to throw money into WMS when one of the nicest college FB stadium sits just 2.5 hours up the road?  Maybe that's how the GSD debate should truly be settled.  Let the voters decide.  $50MM out of tax payers pockets to fix the football  stadium in LR, or just move all of the games to Fayetteville?  It'd be interesting to see how it played out. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: KSHogg on February 09, 2012, 12:52:25 PM

  But if we wait 10 or 20 years to do something, spend millions of dollars on WMS, millions of dollars on RRS, and organically it becomes a necessity to move all of the games, all we did was prolong something that should have been done now.  Stop throwing bad money after good.  Stop having 2 when 1 will suffice.

Nice point.

I don't know if it will ever be a necssity to move all the games but I do believe that is what will eventually happen, and most people probably do too.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HipHog on February 09, 2012, 12:53:00 PM
But who would become Arkansas' team? Who would the Arkansas media, suddenly, begin to shove down our throats?  That's my point.  Just because we move 2 games, which only 110,000 people get to attend each year, I don't see how the entire sports culture of Arkansas would suddenly change. That isn't logical to me.

Exactly.  TV has made the whole proximity thing a moot point.  Look at the "stud" recruits we've lost the last few years.  They've had Razorback propaganda, so to speak, shoved down their throats for years. But that didn't keep them from looking elsewhere.  That's why it's important to improve the program.  If we continue to make RRS and the program a great representation of the state, more and more recruits will come. We'll get better.  We'll be more of a household name.  Maybe we'd lose a few Arkansas fans.  Maybe we gain some from Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, etc.  It works both ways, right? The U of A has record enrollment.  Those kids will have kids.  They'll go to hog games. That will continue. The university continues to expand. NWA continues to expand.  I just don't see our fan base shrinking as long as we keep investing in the program.

We don't have to be unique to be successful.  In fact, we've been unique since 1964 and we've got nothing to show for it. But I'm perfectly fine with letting LR have 1 crappy non-con game a year, especially if it's against LA-Monroe and it doesn't count as a home game for us.  But they need to expand that stadium to fit at least 65-70,000 people. They need to stop charging the UofA to play there. They need to let the UofA run concessions. Those things would at least make playing there not seem like such a step down.  Who's going to foot the bill, though? Is Arkansas in such a state of financial superiority that it can afford to throw money into WMS when one of the nicest college FB stadium sits just 2.5 hours up the road?  Maybe that's how the GSD debate should truly be settled.  Let the voters decide.  $50MM out of tax payers pockets to fix the football  stadium in LR, or just move all of the games to Fayetteville?  It'd be interesting to see how it played out.
i refuse to believe you are this fucking stupid
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 09, 2012, 12:56:18 PM
But who would become Arkansas' team? Who would the Arkansas media, suddenly, begin to shove down our throats?  That's my point.  Just because we move 2 games, which only 110,000 people get to attend each year, I don't see how the entire sports culture of Arkansas would suddenly change. That isn't logical to me.

Exactly.  TV has made the whole proximity thing a moot point.  Look at the "stud" recruits we've lost the last few years.  They've had Razorback propaganda, so to speak, shoved down their throats for years. But that didn't keep them from looking elsewhere.  That's why it's important to improve the program.  If we continue to make RRS and the program a great representation of the state, more and more recruits will come. We'll get better.  We'll be more of a household name.  Maybe we'd lose a few Arkansas fans.  Maybe we gain some from Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, etc.  It works both ways, right? The U of A has record enrollment.  Those kids will have kids.  They'll go to hog games. That will continue. The university continues to expand. NWA continues to expand.  I just don't see our fan base shrinking as long as we keep investing in the program.

We don't have to be unique to be successful.  In fact, we've been unique since 1964 and we've got nothing to show for it. But I'm perfectly fine with letting LR have 1 crappy non-con game a year, especially if it's against LA-Monroe and it doesn't count as a home game for us.  But they need to expand that stadium to fit at least 65-70,000 people. They need to stop charging the UofA to play there. They need to let the UofA run concessions. Those things would at least make playing there not seem like such a step down.  Who's going to foot the bill, though? Is Arkansas in such a state of financial superiority that it can afford to throw money into WMS when one of the nicest college FB stadium sits just 2.5 hours up the road?  Maybe that's how the GSD debate should truly be settled.  Let the voters decide.  $50MM out of tax payers pockets to fix the football  stadium in LR, or just move all of the games to Fayetteville?  It'd be interesting to see how it played out.


Who would replace us as "Arkansas's team?" No one. That's the whole fricking point. It's why some specifically don't want to play stAte. It's why every person who ever spends time in this state end up rooting for Arkansas. Yes, it's really the only place like it besides maybe Nebraska, and it's very unique. You can preach up and down about how we don't need to be unique, but I think it's the very fabric of the program and all of it's tradition. It's a very unwise assumption to think that none of that matters.

Your conjecture about WMS expansion (the whole point of this thread is how stupid that is, right?) and voters is all a huge pipe dream.

I guess my whole point is that people get so god damn worked up over this and they never discuss the real issues.
Ty is spot on with the real issues at stake. The real problems that will need smart solutions and compromise across the board.
I'm just trying to bring to the forefront that this program and university's presence in LR has been and continues to be imperative to creating the Arkansas Razorback tradition that we all know so well. Starkville yes, we need this to be the state's "team." Whether anyone likes to admit it, we don't have the traditionally large numbers of alums and students to compete with out that aura. The Razorbacks are our "pro" team that everyone goes crazy over.

WMS games in LR don't create that by themselves, but it's the cornerstone of the presence of UofA in the state's center. I just think that's very important. No one is on here railing to keep an SEC game in WMS. I think we all understand we need those games on campus now.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Phat_Hawg on February 09, 2012, 12:56:57 PM
i agree with having non conf games in LR, that aMm doesnt bother me as long as there is games here to see. I do find it funny that there is talk about expanding rrs when it doesnt sell out now. Talk about wasting money on LR games....

You should email Jeff Long and tell hm this since he obviously doesn't know what the hell he's doing. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HipHog on February 09, 2012, 01:04:00 PM
You should email Jeff Long and tell hm this since he obviously doesn't know what the Starkville he's doing.
i like regular coke better than coke zero
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 09, 2012, 01:06:36 PM
i like regular coke better than coke zero

I can NEVER get my Helio Ocean on any wifis in teh RRS.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: hogggdadi on February 09, 2012, 01:25:39 PM
don't make me bust out my douchebag salad recipe!!
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 09, 2012, 01:33:38 PM
I'm ok with 1 game per year in Little Rock.

I'm ok with every other year that being a Mississippi (take your pick), rotated with ULM.  I still think we should send Mizzou down there just to haze them.

I'm not ok with sending LSU there every other year, and I'm not ok with sending two games per year there perpetually.

aMm, sign a contract for one game per season there for 10 years.  I'm ok with that.

Fayetteville attendance might actually improve if people had to come to the Hill to see a good game.  If those people aren't coming to Fayetteville now, I don't see the big deal in them continuing to not come to Fayetteville for games.  Same result, right? 

Eastern and Southern Arkansas continue to lose population and it continues to shift to the north and west.

I fully expect.a compromise along these lines, two shitty non cons in one year, one lower tier SEC game the next. If NWA folks would quit trashing the entire state other than their slice of heaven thats connected with 40 miles of 2 lane interstate, theyd see that LR folks are ready to compromise, improve the stadium, and want the best for the hogs.as well.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Biff Malibu on February 09, 2012, 01:43:29 PM
I'm really surprised this is even an issue.  Bigtime football programs don't play their home games on the road...period (unless it's Jerryworld and everyone is getting rich).  Do you realize that we had three "home" games last year where we could not entertain recruits on official visits??  You know how big of a disadvantage that is??

I don't care what you do to WM, it's still a waste receptacle.  It's nothing more than a novelty and the chance for 20-30k people to attend a Razorback game for less money than it would cost to come to Fayetteville.  The other 20-30k is going to go to the game regardless of whether it's in LR or Fayetteville.

It's a cool atmosphere that's losing it's appeal as I get older but I have no problem with one game a year down there.  It better be a cupcake though.  With the constant upgrades that are happening to RRS, along with the other new facilities that are being built, the time has come for every meaningful football game to be played before 70k+ on the Hill.  If you argue otherwise....you're just not being honest with yourself.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 09, 2012, 01:49:10 PM

Who would replace us as "Arkansas's team?" No one. That's the whole fricking point. It's why some specifically don't want to play stAte. It's why every person who ever spends time in this state end up rooting for Arkansas. Yes, it's really the only place like it besides maybe Nebraska, and it's very unique. You can preach up and down about how we don't need to be unique, but I think it's the very fabric of the program and all of it's tradition. It's a very unwise assumption to think that none of that matters.

Your conjecture about WMS expansion (the whole point of this thread is how stupid that is, right?) and voters is all a huge pipe dream.

I guess my whole point is that people get so god damn worked up over this and they never discuss the real issues.
Ty is spot on with the real issues at stake. The real problems that will need smart solutions and compromise across the board.
I'm just trying to bring to the forefront that this program and university's presence in LR has been and continues to be imperative to creating the Arkansas Razorback tradition that we all know so well. Starkville yes, we need this to be the state's "team." Whether anyone likes to admit it, we don't have the traditionally large numbers of alums and students to compete with out that aura. The Razorbacks are our "pro" team that everyone goes crazy over.

WMS games in LR don't create that by themselves, but it's the cornerstone of the presence of UofA in the state's center. I just think that's very important. No one is on here railing to keep an SEC game in WMS. I think we all understand we need those games on campus now.
Yet nobody has addressed any of the questions I posed.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 09, 2012, 01:54:21 PM
If NWA folks would quit trashing the entire state other than their slice of heaven thats connected with 40 miles of 2 lane interstate, theyd see that LR folks are ready to compromise, improve the stadium, and want the best for the hogs.as well.

This is funny to me.  I hear a lot of NWA boosterism, but I rarely hear any mention of "compared to LR" or anywhere else for that matter.

I see jabs in that direction sometimes on here, but its almost always in jest. 

Fayetteville people love Fayetteville.  They generally go about that that without saying "its better than Fort Smith" or "its better than Hot Springs".

I really think that NWA might just be the one area of the state without a huge inferiority complex, and that seems to be unsettling to some people.  It is perceived as "arrogance" to actually like living where you live. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 09, 2012, 02:19:59 PM
I'm really surprised this is even an issue.  Bigtime football programs don't play their home games on the road...period (unless it's Jerryworld and everyone is getting rich).  Do you realize that we had three "home" games last year where we could not entertain recruits on official visits??  You know how big of a disadvantage that is??

I don't care what you do to WM, it's still a waste receptacle.  It's nothing more than a novelty and the chance for 20-30k people to attend a Razorback game for less money than it would cost to come to Fayetteville.  The other 20-30k is going to go to the game regardless of whether it's in LR or Fayetteville.

It's a cool atmosphere that's losing it's appeal as I get older but I have no problem with one game a year down there.  It better be a cupcake though.  With the constant upgrades that are happening to RRS, along with the other new facilities that are being built, the time has come for every meaningful football game to be played before 70k+ on the Hill.  If you argue otherwise....you're just not being honest with yourself.

Is anyone arguing otherwise?

Yet...


Yet nobody has addressed any of the questions I posed.

Exactly.


Everyone loves to get all fired up on these GSDs and turn it into a LR vs. NWA thing.
It's not that at all. Pretty much every single sensible person agrees with the meaningful games going to Fayetteville.
I mean, personally, I like the LSU games here in LR... even though I've had to miss them before because of work.
I completely understand the need to move that game to Fayetteville though... especially in these times where you look at the fact that it was a 1 vs 3 matchup this past season. Hell, we'd probably get kids taking officials just to go to a game like that... getting them on campus is half the battle. Everyone understands that.

Let's talk about the real issues with pulling WMS games. It's not like a magic trick where we instantly generate more revenue. You're talking about a potential change that could piss off season ticket holders and donors on BOTH sides.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 04:43:23 PM
i refuse to believe you are this fricking stupid

What parts, exactly, do you think are wrong? And why? I can think of a couple of programs that had similar arrangements (Ole Miss and Alabama) that haven't fallen off the map in their states because they stopped playing a neutral site game.  Arkansas is different because ________?  Essentially, the answer is always some variation of, "It just is! We're super special."
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 09, 2012, 04:48:17 PM
What parts, exactly, do you think are wrong? And why? I can think of a couple of programs that had similar arrangements (Ole Miss and Alabama) that haven't fallen off the map in their states because they stopped playing a neutral site game.  Arkansas is different because ________?  Essentially, the answer is always some variation of, "It just is! We're super special."


The answer is both of those states have in-state SEC competition for a larger base of in-state recruits that they want to host on campus for official visits for their rivalry games every other season.

Completely different situation.

In fact, I'd argue absolutely no one has a situation like ours.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Mike Slive on February 09, 2012, 04:53:44 PM


The answer is both of those states have in-state SEC competition for a larger base of in-state recruits that they want to host on campus for official visits for their rivalry games every other season.

Completely different situation.

In fact, I'd argue absolutely no one has a situation like ours.

So being the only SEC team in our state is a problem keeping the fans from supporting the program? We need two venues because we are the only bad mamajama in the state? I don't follow.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 09, 2012, 04:56:55 PM
So being the only SEC team in our state is a problem keeping the fans from supporting the program? We need two venues because we are the only bad mamajama in the state? I don't follow.

Nope... has more to do with retaining big-time exposure with the state's biggest (by far) media market and cultural/financial/etc. center.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 09, 2012, 04:58:50 PM
Seriously.

We play a basketball and baseball game in NLR every year for a reason, too.
Anyone calling for those games to end, too?

It's apples to oranges, but no one is wanting LR to get more games. We're conceding SEC action. We're conceding all but one game for the most part, it seems.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Mike Slive on February 09, 2012, 05:01:17 PM
Nope... has more to do with retaining big-time exposure with the state's biggest (by far) media market and cultural/financial/etc. center.

Basketball has a couple more home games to answer your other post. So the AR media is going to keep games in LR because they will boycott the Hogs? Whatever will happen to their ratings when they stop covering the Hogs? This has more to do with Stephen's than Wally, IMO.

Edit: also, wtf is one game really going to do? I will concede one game but sounds like LR thinks its a It's time to admit that jet fuel can't melt steel beams, dang circus coming to town. There is a campus and it is not there. Why is that so crazy? Cause pawpaw did it that way?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 09, 2012, 05:06:02 PM
Basketball has a couple more home games to answer your other post. So the AR media is going to keep games in LR because they will boycott the Hogs? Whatever will happen to their ratings when they stop covering the Hogs? This has more to do with Stephen's than Wally, IMO.

Well, exactly.

But my god. It's like no one reads my posts all the way through.
Nowhere have I said we'd lose fans or that the media would boycott.

It's more about retention. Yes, we need Little Rock to be a Razorback town. If you pull everything in every sport out of Little Rock, yeah media attention would go away over time. I'm talking 10-20+ years in the future.

There's a reason Long organizes huge pep rally type events all week for the first LR game every year.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Southern Yeoman on February 09, 2012, 05:10:47 PM
Lot of smoking keyboards today.

And to think that when I was in HS, a lot of boys were embarrassed to take typing.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Aporkalypse_Now on February 09, 2012, 05:44:15 PM
This is funny to me.  I hear a lot of NWA boosterism, but I rarely hear any mention of "compared to LR" or anywhere else for that matter.

I see jabs in that direction sometimes on here, but its almost always in jest. 

Fayetteville people love Fayetteville.  They generally go about that that without saying "its better than Fort Smith" or "its better than Hot Springs".

I really think that NWA might just be the one area of the state without a huge inferiority complex, and that seems to be unsettling to some people.  It is perceived as "arrogance" to actually like living where you live.

Fayetteville doesn't have an inferiority complex, but NWA as a whole kind of does.  I'm glad we haven't seen much of this in this thread, but I've seen and heard it over and over.  Griping about new freeway lanes or interchanges in LR because state money is helping pay for it, griping about Alltel Arena being built, etc. People getting a little too excited about having an outdoor mall in Rogers.  Crime and black people, "oh noes".  General griping about NWA money "supporting the rest of the state".  One upsmanship like that retarded Rogers arena idea which was to be combined with a WNBA team, both of which were terrible ideas.  Pushing for a 2nd medical school in NWA which led to the UAMS-Northwest branch getting built, which is kind of a metaphor for WMS in that it will make medical education in Arkansas crappier by watering down education and wasting money on substandard programs at a secondary site.

It's kind of a separate issue, though.

The University of Arkansas has to do what is best for the University of Arkansas.  It's not about history, it's not about regional differences, and (sadly) it's not even about student convenience.

It's about money and the on-field success of the program, which of course begets more money.

It was to UA's advantage to start playing games at a larger Quigley stadium in the 1920s and to play in LR to get bigger crowds and donations until 2001, when RRS expanded. Since then it hasn't been to UA's advantage any more, and it's been about compromise.  I don't get why some people want the UA to give up revenue, recruiting weekends, and ability to improve its own stadium by playing at WMS.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Mike Slive on February 09, 2012, 05:54:21 PM
The argument I hear is that it's because we won't have BMFP forever and 5-7's will require LR games to keep the revenue flowing in from all parts of the state.  Also, could be because if Gus makes some noise in 10 or so years and we go 5-7, then the media may not cover the Hogs as much.

I think I understand what they are saying.  I just think they must be scared or selfish.  I drive to LR from even 35 more minutes north all the time.  3 hours dude, 3 hours.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Trigger7672 on February 09, 2012, 06:14:46 PM
The argument I hear is that it's because we won't have BMFP forever and 5-7's will require LR games to keep the revenue flowing in from all parts of the state.


Well we are definitely fucked once Petrino is gone. I guess these people think we will never hire another good coach again.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Hogwildpigcrazy on February 09, 2012, 06:18:49 PM
Lot of smoking keyboards today.

And to think that when I was in HS, a lot of boys were embarrassed to take typing.

Yep. And piano lessons too. Now that I'm old(er), I wish like hell I could bang out a tune on a piano.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 06:21:25 PM
Who would replace us as "Arkansas's team?" No one. That's the whole fricking point.
Then why do we worry so much about what might happen if we take games away from LR? That's MY point.  Do you think Arkansas fans will stop being Arkansas fans and just quit following college football COMPLETELY? For your theory to hold water (Arkansas will lose fans if we take the games away from LR), you have to assume that those former fans will become fans of someone else, or just stop being fans of ANYONE.  So, who do you see as a threat to steal away Razorback fans? Or is it that you think they'll just stop supporting anyone?

It's why some specifically don't want to play stAte.

You mean these pussies who think SO VERY LITTLE of the UofA that they actually think that by playing a Sun Belt team we'll start losing fans/recruits...to a Sun Belt team?

It's why every person who ever spends time in this state end up rooting for Arkansas.

False.

Yes, it's really the only place like it besides maybe Nebraska, and it's very unique. You can preach up and down about how we don't need to be unique, but I think it's the very fabric of the program and all of it's tradition. It's a very unwise assumption to think that none of that matters.

Actually, I have about 120 D1 programs that are operating just fine without this "uniqueness." LR apologists have ONLY hyperbole.  THAT'S IT.  You mentioned Nebraska. How many games does Nebraska play in the center of their state? None, you say? Their in a corner of their state, you say? How, on earth, have they managed to survive!!?!?

Did Alabama or Ole Miss lose any of their prestige or traditions by moving away from neutral site home games? I'm simply wanting a legitimate argument for why these other programs are so much different than Arkansas.  How these other programs have continued to have support or, in the case of Bama, success despite making such moves.  Explain to me how Nebraska can have one of the most storied programs in college football, the support of their entire state, but Arkansas cannot.  Explain that to me.  Explain to me why NE or AL or MS football fans haven more confidence in the worth of their programs than you guys seem to have in ours.

Your conjecture about WMS expansion (the whole point of this thread is how stupid that is, right?) and voters is all a huge pipe dream.

Lost me here.  What's a pipe dream? That they'd expand WMS? That they'd have to lean on taxpayers to accomplish such a feat? I don't remember how past WMS renovations have been funded.  Enlighten me.

I guess my whole point is that people get so god damn worked up over this and they never discuss the real issues.
Ty is spot on with the real issues at stake.

You mean the season tickets? Well, since I'm Jeff Long, let me tell you how we'll tackle it... :sarcasm:
Ty is concerned about his pocket book and his convenience.  "I live 10 minutes from WMS." Well holy shit. I'm really surprised that he's raising those questions.  If you can't afford season tickets, don't buy them.  I don't have season tickets.  But from what I remember, they had a long open session for people to order them/make their donations. Once that deadline passed, they opened up those tickets to single-game sales.  I would imagine that would be the strategy going forward, too.  I'm not saying there won't be challenges in regards to changing the "answer the call" type stuff.  But that's a secondary issue.  You first have to make the decision to move the games because it's what's best for the program.   You can't run the athletic department and still think, "but what about that guy down in North Little Rock who won't be able to afford a Fayetteville season ticket package."  Obviously they feel pretty confident about our demand for tickets since they're expanding...

The real problems that will need smart solutions and compromise across the board.

What do you, as a LR apologist, propose as a compromise?  Take away a game and call it a day? Leave the stadium as it is?  Or keep 2 games and add significant seating? 

I'm just trying to bring to the forefront that this program and university's presence in LR has been and continues to be imperative to creating the Arkansas Razorback tradition that we all know so well.

So you're saying that LR is very important in terms of keeping our tradition of playing in LR.  Well, yeah. Agreed.  The rest of our traditions and their ability to continue?  There's nothing that PROVES we couldn't be just as successful without LR.  It's nothing but hyperbole and posturing.  My position is at least backed up by a couple of examples, cost savings, and official recruiting visit benefits.

Starkville yes, we need this to be the state's "team." Whether anyone likes to admit it, we don't have the traditionally large numbers of alums and students to compete with out that aura. The Razorbacks are our "pro" team that everyone goes crazy over.

Who would become our "pro" team, otherwise?

WMS games in LR don't create that by themselves, but it's the cornerstone of the presence of UofA in the state's center. I just think that's very important. No one is on here railing to keep an SEC game in WMS. I think we all understand we need those games on campus now.

Agreed.  I just think you're EVENTUALLY going to have EVERY game on campus.  So why not pull off the bandaid now, at the height of our program post-1964, and make it easier for fans to get over their hurt feelings because we're so good. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Aporkalypse_Now on February 09, 2012, 06:24:29 PM
Well we are definitely fricked once Petrino is gone. I guess these people think we will never hire another good coach again.

Petrino is an opportunity for us. They make it sound like a damn curse that we'll suck when he leaves.

We were a top 10 program when Broyles retired.  Holtz was a big time coach, he just got run oft.  Hatfield was a solid coach, and he got run oft.  We hired shitty and now we aren't a top 10 program anymore.

We need to close the gap between our $72 mil budget and the $100-110 Bama, Tennessee and Florida have and make sure we have top notch facilities.  We don't have the resources in this state to waste millions on competing venues.

Years of winning consistently will ensure our fans lavish money on the program, and Petrino has a legacy to leave the next coach.  It's amazing that instead of seeing him as an opportunity to build our program up to the top again people see it as inevitable we will suck donkey dick when he leaves and therefore we might as well play in a 53,000 seat stadium forever and not bother expecting anything better than 9th place in the SEC.  That's bullshit talk.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Arkansas Proud on February 09, 2012, 06:53:00 PM
Fayetteville doesn't have an inferiority complex, but NWA as a whole kind of does. 

 ???

Most of what you posted was the other way around. 

Think about it.  People move from all over the state to NWA.  Nobody moves from NWA to Little Rock.  Nobody.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HipHog on February 09, 2012, 06:57:51 PM
???

Most of what you posted was the other way around. 

Think about it.  People move from all over the state to NWA.  Nobody moves from NWA to Little Rock.  Nobody.
not true
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 09, 2012, 06:58:32 PM
???

Most of what you posted was the other way around. 

Think about it.  People move from all over the state to NWA.  Nobody moves from NWA to Little Rock.  Nobody.

Either this is a good joke.....or proves the entire point.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Aporkalypse_Now on February 09, 2012, 06:58:58 PM
???

Most of what you posted was the other way around. 

Think about it.  People move from all over the state to NWA.  Nobody moves from NWA to Little Rock.  Nobody.

See what I mean.  Case and point.  And also not true.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 09, 2012, 07:04:15 PM
Petrino is an opportunity for us. They make it sound like a damn curse that we'll suck when he leaves.

We were a top 10 program when Broyles retired.  Holtz was a big time coach, he just got run oft.  Hatfield was a solid coach, and he got run oft.  We hired shitty and now we aren't a top 10 program anymore.

We need to close the gap between our $72 mil budget and the $100-110 Bama, Tennessee and Florida have and make sure we have top notch facilities.  We don't have the resources in this state to waste millions on competing venues.

Years of winning consistently will ensure our fans lavish money on the program, and Petrino has a legacy to leave the next coach.  It's amazing that instead of seeing him as an opportunity to build our program up to the top again people see it as inevitable we will suck donkey dick when he leaves and therefore we might as well play in a 53,000 seat stadium forever and not bother expecting anything better than 9th place in the SEC.  That's bullshit talk.
How do we close that $30 million gap? Easy to say we need to do it...much more difficult coming up with answers.

Moving a game or 2 to Fayetteville will possibly only create the same $$$ that we have now. Donations/Answer the Call monies from the LR only crowd (20-30K per others estimate in this thread) will by and large go away. Folks that don't already have season RRS tickets won't all of a sudden ante up for a seat license + the cost for tickets to 7-8 games. No way.

I also believe you could lose some Fayetteville season ticket sales (as I posted earlier) due to the fact that a family of 4 would have an extra $500 they'd have to spend for season tickets for 2 crappy games. Throw in the logic that Long would also need to recoup the seperate Answer the Call monies that wouldn't be coming in from LR anymore by possibly upping the ante once again for RRS seat priviledges and you could have a sticky situation.

Or, as I stated earlier, I could be way off base and there is a huge demand for more season tickets in Fayetteville than I think.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Southern Yeoman on February 09, 2012, 07:04:45 PM
Yep. And piano lessons too. Now that I'm old(er), I wish like hell I could bang out a tune on a piano.
My mother was a piano teacher and all us kids played piano.  She let me quit in HS to play football.  I wish she hadn’t.  I wasn’t worth a shit at DT, but I would be pretty darn good on piano by now.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Cerdo on February 09, 2012, 07:29:49 PM
How do we close that $30 million gap? Easy to say we need to do it...much more difficult coming up with answers.

Moving a game or 2 to Fayetteville will possibly only create the same $$$ that we have now. Donations/Answer the Call monies from the LR only crowd (20-30K per others estimate in this thread) will by and large go away. Folks that don't already have season RRS tickets won't all of a sudden ante up for a seat license + the cost for tickets to 7-8 games. No way.

I also believe you could lose some Fayetteville season ticket sales (as I posted earlier) due to the fact that a family of 4 would have an extra $500 they'd have to spend for season tickets for 2 crappy games. Throw in the logic that Long would also need to recoup the separate Answer the Call monies that wouldn't be coming in from LR anymore by possibly upping the ante once again for RRS seat privileges and you could have a sticky situation.

Or, as I stated earlier, I could be way off base and there is a huge demand for more season tickets in Fayetteville than I think.
I'm confused entirely by Ty's questions though.
It is been said in this thread that we end up losing 1 to 2 million to play the games in LR.
If we are pulling in 1-2 million from "Answer the Call" and donations by having the games in LR, which is a number I am absolutely making up because I have no idea what it is - well, isn't that basically a break even?

I don't know if they get more $ by having EVERY game in RRS simply by moving a cupcake or two to Fayetteville but I'd be willing to bet that demand would go up among ticket buyers and donors if bama and LSU were BOTH on the Fayetteville slate. 

I won't address the non money stuff in this argument anymore because I think this entire argument at its base is simply a psychological rehash of the NWA VS Central AR culture war, which I have grown tired of, being a non Arkansan who loves both areas of the state. 

Getting back to the money stuff - the point about a state vote asking everyone to pay a tax for WMS improvements vs just moving all games to Fayetteville would be a landslide.  We aren't a wealthy state and whether or not we keep a game in WMS or not or two is still not addressing the issue that the WMS people need to get proactive on creating some kind of revenue stream for that stadium beyond spending a bunch of money for one or two Hog games a year. 

By the way, I have gone to every game in RRS since moving back in 2000 and I can't recall any game, against any cupcake, that had less people in the stands then WMS capacity... certainly not since the expansion. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Vito Porkleone on February 09, 2012, 08:18:34 PM
The level that we are aiming for is above anything we've achieved in our history, even in the beloved 1960's.  This is big boy football, and we need to run our program as such - not under the auspices of financial or geographic constraints from half a decade ago that no longer exist.

True, meaningful growth is never without pain, anguish, or effort.  Move 'em all.  Now.  If certain individuals allow this to drive a wedge between themselves and the program, then maybe their motives aren't so pure.  Convenience be damned.





Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 09, 2012, 08:29:49 PM
 

By the way, I have gone to every game in RRS since moving back in 2000 and I can't recall any game, against any cupcake, that had less people in the stands then WMS capacity... certainly not since the expansion.
It HAS happened, although not in the last 7 seasons. In 2002 vs Weber St 52,683, 2003 vs La-Lafayette 54,843 and 2004 vs N Mexico St 53,275. Several have been in the 60-62k range.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Southern Yeoman on February 09, 2012, 08:33:54 PM
I’m supposed to have a take in my posts.  Here’s my take.  It has nothing to do with figures.  I like tradition.  The past year has seen West Virginia, an eastern school, join the southern plains schools, Boise State, in the northern plains, join the eastern schools, all to get more $$.  If that’s 21st century football, ie, schools spurning years of folklore to profit, fine.  I like to turn a profit, too.  It’s just left me behind in less than a generation.  There’s a tradition of playing in LR.  Who cares what Alabama did?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Cerdo on February 09, 2012, 08:49:13 PM
Like I said, this debate is, in its essence, nothing more than a battlefield to air grievances - Little Rock feels that NWA disrespects its place and importance and NWA takes little digs at Central Arkansas just to piss it off because it knows that it can.  I know that there is a small vein of thought in NWA that looks down it's nose at Central Arkansas, but I think it is an incredibly small minority - it's more of a situation where the two regions competing up here for the title of "center of NWA culture" spend all their time trying to remind the other sibling that they're now beneath them.

It is a disfunctional family - Little Rock is the middle aged man pissed off that his kids named Fayetteville and Bentonville are not giving him his due while the two kids in question are so busy trying to frick each other over that they don't realize that they come off as little pricks to Grandpa at Thanksgiving.   

Few people seem to be at real disagreement here over what probably needs to be the future.  I've seen almost everyone agree to one non conf game and there seems to be almost universal agreement over moving LSU to Fayetteville.  So in the end what is the fighting REALLY about? 

Like I said, simply a forum to rehash the NWA vs LR culture war and nothing more....
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 09, 2012, 09:05:26 PM
Gotta love this debate...

Eh, I know that UAMS in Little Rock is littered with buildings named for and paid for by NWA and Fort Smith people.

I don't see the reciprocal private investment on the Arkansas campus from Little Rock families.  In a lot of ways, I feel that LR has always treated the U of A like the U of NWA.

I still don't see any evidence in NWA of one-upsmanship vs LR.  Its Rogers vs Fayetteville if anything.  Benton County vs Washington County.  I think the difference is that LR people somehow seem aware of things being built in NWA, like malls, arenas, etc.  I don't think your average resident of NWA really thinks about LR that often.  That's not an insult, but its just reality.

Local TV weather coverage here stops around Russellville.  Most of the local TV stations cover news in eastern Oklahoma more than they do anything in central Arkansas.  That's just the way it is. 

The legislative bullshit is more about central Arkansas and small town Arkansas.  There is a push to "put a 4-lane road in every town over 5,000 people" down there that is complete horseshit, when NWA has been trying to get a by-pass around Bella Vista for decades.  Stupid aMm like that...  And it does seem that LR gets a lot of its amenity projects paid for with state funds, while NWA has always seemed to bootstrap those kinds of things locally.  But your average NWA resident isn't even aware of things like that.  They don't care.  This corner of the state has operated like its own little world for a long time, and even with more connectivity to the rest of Arkansas, it still has that mentality.  That's not a "we're better than you" thing.  That's a "we gotta do aMm ourselves" mentality, because that's the way this area has always operated.

Its crazy how when you say something like "the games should be played on campus", you are already "talking down to Little Rock."  That's about you guys down there, not us up here.
 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Hogtired on February 09, 2012, 09:16:59 PM
I live in the Rock and I understand both sides. If I owned a business I would want to kick my competitors butt and make a huge profit. Yet, if I have your business and you are moving to a competitor I would be mad as a hornet.

For the People in NWA, we are not poor, uneducated or drunkards. We are Arkansans whether born here or transplants and we are Hog fans; just like you. A dollar here counts as much as a dollar there.

We cannot win the revenue contribution battle nor will we ever. We are not the problem. It is not our fault BMFP and Long want to do things differently at the expense of loyal fans to raise money. Geez folks, learn to look at the whole picture and be respectful to your fellow Hog fans. Step back and look at it unemotionally and I'm positive the outcome will be the same.

Is Duckman making predictions on this.

Now, where is that screen door?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 09, 2012, 09:21:32 PM
I still don't see any evidence in NWA of one-upsmanship vs LR.  Its Rogers vs Fayetteville if anything.  Benton County vs Washington County.  I think the difference is that LR people somehow seem aware of things being built in NWA, like malls, arenas, etc.  I don't think your average resident of NWA really thinks about LR that often.  That's not an insult, but its just reality.

Local TV weather coverage here stops around Russellville.  Most of the local TV stations cover news in eastern Oklahoma more than they do anything in central Arkansas.  That's just the way it is. 

I agree 100% with this. When I was in school up there it was like I was in another state with Missouri and Oklahoma news. I'm not saying it's good or bad but there is a disconnect between NWA and the rest of the state. TV down here covers the whole state. NWA TV covers only that area of the state.

Like WMR said, that's just the way it is.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Cerdo on February 09, 2012, 09:28:22 PM
Yet nobody has addressed any of the questions I posed.
I tried to at least put it in a different light because I think your concept may be flawed.... although it may be my lack of understanding that is the problem.

Do you have any thoughts about what I wrote above about what we supposedly lose playing in WMS versus the counterbalance of donations? Does any of that make sense?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: DRYANKNPULL on February 09, 2012, 09:31:38 PM
I think every one looks at this as to what is in their best intrest. Cent ark people want the convenience of attending a couple of games.  NWA folks want to have all of the games in their back yard.  I'm a cent ark fan that has gone on record for wanting all games in Fayetteville. 

Truth be told, I'm just tired of sitting by a 400 lb guy from Smackover. Every game at WMS I'm wishing I was in my club seat in Fayetteville.  If I had a club seat in LR, I'd probably be asking to keep the games in LR.

That being said, it will be in the best interest of the program to keep all of the games on campus.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 09, 2012, 09:35:52 PM
I agree 100% with this. When I was in school up there it was like I was in another state with Missouri and Oklahoma news. I'm not saying it's good or bad but there is a disconnect between NWA and the rest of the state. TV down here covers the whole state. NWA TV covers only that area of the state.

Like WMR said, that's just the way it is.

Exactly.  If there's a murder or a big construction project in NWA, your local LR news will cover it in their "across Arkansas" segment, just like they would cover something in Hot Springs or Pine Bluff.

In NWA, if it doesn't happen in one of about 12 counties, we never hear about it.  We even have our own version of the newspaper up here, and unless its local news, its backpage stuff. 

I haven't been to LR since 2006, unless you count driving through once to go duck hunting.  I've been to DFW about a dozen times in that same time-frame.  I'd bet your average NWA resident goes to Dallas more often than LR, unless they are chasing kids around with high school sports that take them to Central Arkansas.

Hell, I've been to Las Vegas more times in the last five years than Little Rock.  A lot more. 

NWA has always revolved around Tulsa as a big-bro metro, but in the last 10 years, with all the growth, Tulsa is pretty much off the radar here except for an alternate airport.

In the average five-year span, I have a slightly more intimate relationship with LR than I do OKC.  That's no offense to either, but since I'm not from there, and I don't have family there, I just don't ever have much of a reason to go to either city.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Mike Slive on February 09, 2012, 09:36:33 PM
I swear it's not about culture with me. I really just don't understand why you wouldn't want our team to play in a better stadium in front of a larger crowd. All just to see La Tech? Something just doesn't jive.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Cerdo on February 09, 2012, 09:38:02 PM


That being said, it will be in the best interest of the program to keep all of the games on campus.
Well, I do think it serves the long term interests of the program to keep a game at WMS, even if you do lose money and even if you do lose a recruiting weekend.  I may even make a "pole". 

Sometimes you have to look at the intangibles that you gain.  MLB is a sport that has probably lost a generation of fans due to playing all the playoff games late at night when little kids were headed to bed.  Boxing has been relegated to die hards by disappearing off network TV. 

Short term profit < long term health
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 09:38:17 PM
I just hope none of the people who are "up in arms" over Petrino's recruiting realized that playing in LR directly impacts his ability to recruit on an equal basis with our competition.  In the worst state in the SEC for in-state talent. 

Good luck, coach.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 09, 2012, 09:55:18 PM
I tried to at least put it in a different light because I think your concept may be flawed.... although it may be my lack of understanding that is the problem.

Do you have any thoughts about what I wrote above about what we supposedly lose playing in WMS versus the counterbalance of donations? Does any of that make sense?
Yes, I understand what your saying. If we had the numbers Long and Co. were privy to it might be a cut an dried issue to either move all of them OR to make sure you keep 1 scrub game at WMS.  :) I would think it's closer to $1 million lost vs $2 million but I have nothing to back that up OR if Answer the Call helped even out the numbers for playing in LR.

I'm just not sure 10-15K more tickets sales for 2 bad games in Fayetteville will offset the potential amount of donations/Answer the Call (ATC) monies that will be lost OR that ALL RRS season tickets holders would be willing to fork over even more money for ATC + 2 games worth of crappy tickets.

Seems to me if it was an easy decision Long and Co. would have already made the call and moved on.

As far as expanding RRS....we are once again expanding at what seems to be our zenith in football for the last 30 years. We did the same thing in basketball and 15 years later folks were saying we built BWA too big/empty seats are pathetic/etc, etc.

Thinking that we will get another BMFP when he eventually leaves is probably foolhardy. Rarely does a team follow up a great coach with another one. We got lucky with Sutton/Richardson. Bama can't do it, Florida can't do it, USC can't do it, Texas can't do, it Oklahoma can't do it and those are teams with multiple football national titles in the last 40 years. New Operations Center = great. Move LSU to Fayetteville, a must for recruiting = great. Expand RRS = meh.

If Long had his original way we wouldn't even have this thread. LR would still always have 2 games. There'd be no expansion plans and we'd be bitching why Grobe, Bowden or Tuberville once again had us ranked 35th in recruiting.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Hogwildpigcrazy on February 09, 2012, 09:59:10 PM
Great off season thread topic. It reminds me of piranhas. Most of the year in the habitat of these little meat eaters, it is perfectly safe to swim or wade the water amongst them. But during the dry season, when the waterholes dry up into small pools, they turn on each other as food is scarce. And they will devour any poor creature that ventures in.

Woe be the MIZZOU or aTm troll who dares to wade the Woopig in the offseason.

Carry on. And keep at least one game in LR.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 09, 2012, 10:10:13 PM
For the "keep 1 game in LR" crowd:

For how long? Forever?

Are you okay with 1 game forever without any upgrades to WMS?  If you're assuming upgrades, who pays for it?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Nick Ahpleeze on February 09, 2012, 10:14:13 PM
First, I am for playing all home games at RRS plus finding a replacement for the Southwest Classic at Jerry World. And I grew up going to games at WMS.

WMS was originally built 1) to honor Arkansas' war veterans and 2) to maximize accessibility to Razorback games to fans. WMS is and always has been a state-owned facility and thus is the responsibility of the state, although due to the revenue from Razorback games the state has had to provide little if any funds to the stadium.

While Staggs and the Commission have for the most part done a good job maintaining WMS for the purposes of #1 above, they need to start understanding the need for #2 disappeared years ago and the only reason games are still being played there is because Broyles flubbed the initial attempt at moving games and the sentimentality of many (like myself) who remember becoming Razorbacks fans there.

But at this point, every true Razorback fan realizes that the team needs to play in the venue that gives them the best chance of winning and that is RRS. Anyone who supports games at WMS at this point is no better than the people who put Hootie over the program.

Staggs and the Commission need to get their ass in gear, accept facts, and start exploring ways to replace the lost revenue when all games are moved to RRS. I don't know why we couldn't get one of the lower-tier bowl games. I watched several played in worse places than WMS. Have ASU and UCA play there every year. Do something. But quit thinking the Razorbacks are going to keep playing there forever.


 2nd'd ... It made sense to play games (the better games to boot) @ WMS back when Razorback stadium only held 41,000 but once RRS upgraded it makes none. I have attended just about every game @ WMS since '67 @ have lots of great memories but I now find it excrutiating to sit through 4 quarters in that cramped piece of s... BUT I do,unlike a large portion of the "Great Fans of central Ark" that can't wait to go back out to the parking lot after 1/2 time. Look, once they bowl RRS's north endzone it is over for LR. Learn it know it live it.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: bakervscarrr on February 09, 2012, 10:54:31 PM
Man, I love a good GSD.  Nothing like it.  There are so many arguments going on at once.

Stadium "niceness"?  Really?  For the vast majority of people, it's an aluminum bench.  Concourse width?  If you're bitching about concourse width, that tells me that you're willing to risk missing a play because you need to wee-wee or your bitch of a wife won't get her own coke, and you're too much of a pussy to stand up for yourself.  I'm not a world traveler, but I've been to games in Oxford, Starkville, Tuscaloosa, Nashville, and Lexington lately, in addition to the Cotton Bowl (on Fair Park), Liberty Bowl, Georgia Dome and Superdome.  Nuts and bolts, there is NOTHING about any of the outdoor stadiums to separate one functionally from the rest.  If anything, Vaught-Hemingway, Davis Wade, the Liberty Bowl, and the Cotton Bowl seemed to be MORE rickety.  War Memorial gives me a place to put my ass.  Barely.  It's cramped.  That's the only truly fair bitch folks can have against it.  Otherwise, it offers me the same exact opportunity Razorback Stadium does. 

So that argument gets appropriately dismissed and the next one is that the financials are too overwhelming.  They are.  That's why games are moving.  That's why games should move.  But it's not without risk, and pulling completely out of Little Rock, in my opinion, greatly increases that risk.

I was discussing this yesterday with a fellow woopigger, and he wondered aloud how many games in War Memorial Stadium did Byran Jones get to watch.  He's from Junction City, a long assed ways from Fayetteville.  I don't have any idea, but the point was that there is a pretty good chance the answer is zero, and we got him anyway, just like we get most of the kids from Warren and Camden and Texarkana, most of whom probably have never been to a game at War Memorial.  Their personal experience isn't as important, however, as the collective experience of those around them.  Of their communities.  Yes, population is shifting north and west, but Warren is still shitting out Division I wide receivers, and we seem to like wide receivers.  I want those kids to see a lot of Razorback shirts when they are walking around Wal-Mart.  Pulling games out of Little Rock will reduce the number they see. 

Maybe not enough to offset the benefits of moving the games, but we really don't know.  Not for sure.  And we won't for 20 or 30 years.  When a generation of kids, who don't have a game at War Memorial as the beginning of their Razorback fandom burned into their memory, grows up and we're still pulling anyone we want out of south Arkansas and we're still putting 85k people in Razorback Stadium, then you can say it was stupid to not do it sooner.  Until then I think you have to admit that we're taking a risk.

I think a yearly game with ASU is the perfect solution, but it doesn't really matter to me.  I support moving the LSU game, and I think that WMS should get one game annually. Make it a conference game every other year.  I think most reasonable people would be fine with that, outside of those who insist on bitching about the "tailgating" in Fayetteville and those who insist on bitching about the "dump" in Little Rock.  Those people will never get that Hog games are what you make them, just like everything else.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: bakervscarrr on February 09, 2012, 11:08:59 PM
I haven't been to LR since 2006, unless you count driving through once to go duck hunting.  I've been to DFW about a dozen times in that same time-frame.  I'd bet your average NWA resident goes to Dallas more often than LR, unless they are chasing kids around with high school sports that take them to Central Arkansas.


There have been ten Razorback games played in Little Rock during that time.  Couldn't make any of them?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Aporkalypse_Now on February 09, 2012, 11:24:46 PM
How do we close that $30 million gap? Easy to say we need to do it...much more difficult coming up with answers.

Moving a game or 2 to Fayetteville will possibly only create the same $$$ that we have now. Donations/Answer the Call monies from the LR only crowd (20-30K per others estimate in this thread) will by and large go away. Folks that don't already have season RRS tickets won't all of a sudden ante up for a seat license + the cost for tickets to 7-8 games. No way.

I also believe you could lose some Fayetteville season ticket sales (as I posted earlier) due to the fact that a family of 4 would have an extra $500 they'd have to spend for season tickets for 2 crappy games. Throw in the logic that Long would also need to recoup the seperate Answer the Call monies that wouldn't be coming in from LR anymore by possibly upping the ante once again for RRS seat priviledges and you could have a sticky situation.

Or, as I stated earlier, I could be way off base and there is a huge demand for more season tickets in Fayetteville than I think.

Answer the call already made a decent dent.  While we may not have 100,000 seats, we will have more suite and club seating than anyone and 80K with that many club and suite seat gets more revenue than 100K does. 

We have to get more contributions, and over time we will. That's a phase in.  We get more out of basketball and baseball than almost every other team does, so we have that working for us.

In addition, our facilities exceed our budget because of some big donations.  Our budget isn't much above Missouri's (the difference is just SEC TV revenue) but our facilities are far, far better.  Why? Because of big donors.

If we are going to resign ourselves to be an Ole Miss or Miss St and not try to compete with the big dogs in facilities and on the field, I'm not going to bother worrying about the Hogs.  I can be frustrated right here next to Jerryworld and not drive 5 hours every other weekend in the fall.

I used to think just like you do, but most of my friends in LR go to the Fayetteville games anyway and kind of assume the games being moved is an inevitability.  A lot of people I know how flipped form the keep the games in LR crowd to the other side, just as I have.  A few people I know would prefer to keep them in LR, but won't stop donating or buying tiekets to RRS games because of it.  I sit next to LR people in LR who go to Fayetteville games, and in Fayetteville I sit next to people from Paragould who make every game in either location.  I think most people are that way, and I'm a lot more optimistic about our future than you are.  As long as Petrino is here, I think people are afraid not to get season tickets and get on the bus.  Look at Answer the Call, all of the doom and gloom we heard not only ended with a substantial increase in total donations, but also a substantial increase in number of donors.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 09, 2012, 11:27:33 PM
There have been ten Razorback games played in Little Rock during that time.  Couldn't make any of them?
Brings up the question of how many Fayetteville area residents actually go to the LR games? I question because I have no idea. Guys on the woopigs that live in NWA...do any of y'all go to LR games? If not, why not?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Aporkalypse_Now on February 09, 2012, 11:28:10 PM
Great off season thread topic. It reminds me of piranhas. Most of the year in the habitat of these little meat eaters, it is perfectly safe to swim or wade the water amongst them. But during the dry season, when the waterholes dry up into small pools, they turn on each other as food is scarce. And they will devour any poor creature that ventures in.

Woe be the MIZZOU or aTm troll who dares to wade the Woopig in the offseason.

Carry on. And keep at least one game in LR.

Simile/metaphor score:

Wally Hall 0
hogwildpigcrazy 1

Nice analogy.

My final answer: Do whatever the fuck Bobby wants.  As long as it comes from him, I don't care what anyone else thinks.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: hogfan58 on February 10, 2012, 06:19:58 AM
I've been saying this for years...the "easy" solution is 2 games: the annual non-conference directional LA school and alternate the Miss. schools. Move LSU to RRS and be done with it.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 10, 2012, 09:06:41 AM
Then why do we worry so much about what might happen if we take games away from LR? That's MY point.  Do you think Arkansas fans will stop being Arkansas fans and just quit following college football COMPLETELY? For your theory to hold water (Arkansas will lose fans if we take the games away from LR), you have to assume that those former fans will become fans of someone else, or just stop being fans of ANYONE.  So, who do you see as a threat to steal away Razorback fans? Or is it that you think they'll just stop supporting anyone?

You mean these putheys who think SO VERY LITTLE of the UofA that they actually think that by playing a Sun Belt team we'll start losing fans/recruits...to a Sun Belt team?

False.

Actually, I have about 120 D1 programs that are operating just fine without this "uniqueness." LR apologists have ONLY hyperbole.  THAT'S IT.  You mentioned Nebraska. How many games does Nebraska play in the center of their state? None, you say? Their in a corner of their state, you say? How, on earth, have they managed to survive!!?!?

Did Alabama or Ole Miss lose any of their prestige or traditions by moving away from neutral site home games? I'm simply wanting a legitimate argument for why these other programs are so much different than Arkansas.  How these other programs have continued to have support or, in the case of Bama, success despite making such moves.  Explain to me how Nebraska can have one of the most storied programs in college football, the support of their entire state, but Arkansas cannot.  Explain that to me.  Explain to me why NE or AL or MS football fans haven more confidence in the worth of their programs than you guys seem to have in ours.

Lost me here.  What's a pipe dream? That they'd expand WMS? That they'd have to lean on taxpayers to accomplish such a feat? I don't remember how past WMS renovations have been funded.  Enlighten me.

You mean the season tickets? Well, since I'm Jeff Long, let me tell you how we'll tackle it... :sarcasm:
Ty is concerned about his pocket book and his convenience.  "I live 10 minutes from WMS." Well holy aMm. I'm really surprised that he's raising those questions.  If you can't afford season tickets, don't buy them.  I don't have season tickets.  But from what I remember, they had a long open session for people to order them/make their donations. Once that deadline passed, they opened up those tickets to single-game sales.  I would imagine that would be the strategy going forward, too.  I'm not saying there won't be challenges in regards to changing the "answer the call" type stuff.  But that's a secondary issue.  You first have to make the decision to move the games because it's what's best for the program.   You can't run the athletic department and still think, "but what about that guy down in North Little Rock who won't be able to afford a Fayetteville season ticket package."  Obviously they feel pretty confident about our demand for tickets since they're expanding...

What do you, as a LR apologist, propose as a compromise?  Take away a game and call it a day? Leave the stadium as it is?  Or keep 2 games and add significant seating? 

So you're saying that LR is very important in terms of keeping our tradition of playing in LR.  Well, yeah. Agreed.  The rest of our traditions and their ability to continue?  There's nothing that PROVES we couldn't be just as successful without LR.  It's nothing but hyperbole and posturing.  My position is at least backed up by a couple of examples, cost savings, and official recruiting visit benefits.

Who would become our "pro" team, otherwise?

Agreed.  I just think you're EVENTUALLY going to have EVERY game on campus.  So why not pull off the bandaid now, at the height of our program post-1964, and make it easier for fans to get over their hurt feelings because we're so good.


HOLY SHIT.

You're either that dumb, or you just literally have not read what me and Ty have said AT ALL. There's no point in repeatedly telling you the same thing over and over. I'm not insane, you're just dumb.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 10, 2012, 09:21:39 AM
I was discussing this yesterday with a fellow woopigger, and he wondered aloud how many games in War Memorial Stadium did Byran Jones get to watch.  He's from Junction City, a long assed ways from Fayetteville.  I don't have any idea, but the point was that there is a pretty good chance the answer is zero, and we got him anyway, just like we get most of the kids from Warren and Camden and Texarkana, most of whom probably have never been to a game at War Memorial.  Their personal experience isn't as important, however, as the collective experience of those around them.  Of their communities.  Yes, population is shifting north and west, but Warren is still shitting out Division I wide receivers, and we seem to like wide receivers.  I want those kids to see a lot of Razorback shirts when they are walking around Wal-Mart.  Pulling games out of Little Rock will reduce the number they see. 

Maybe not enough to offset the benefits of moving the games, but we really don't know.  Not for sure.  And we won't for 20 or 30 years.  When a generation of kids, who don't have a game at War Memorial as the beginning of their Razorback fandom burned into their memory, grows up and we're still pulling anyone we want out of south Arkansas and we're still putting 85k people in Razorback Stadium, then you can say it was stupid to not do it sooner.  Until then I think you have to admit that we're taking a risk.

I think a yearly game with ASU is the perfect solution, but it doesn't really matter to me.  I support moving the LSU game, and I think that WMS should get one game annually. Make it a conference game every other year.  I think most reasonable people would be fine with that, outside of those who insist on bitching about the "tailgating" in Fayetteville and those who insist on bitching about the "dump" in Little Rock.  Those people will never get that Hog games are what you make them, just like everything else.

Exactly the point I've been trying to make.

Someone else was really close with their MLB and boxing comparisons too.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Aporkalypse_Now on February 10, 2012, 09:33:18 AM
I don't get the "play one game vs ASU in LR" thing.

What in the world does UA have to gain from that?

We already sell out WMS for cupcakes anyway, or if there are 1000 empty seats because UA didn't advertise the turnbacks that's nobody's fault.  ASU would not be content with just playing there and getting their 3000 ticket allotment and the same deal we give ULM, they would want more.

Lose that game and how bad does it look for fans in the Eastern half of the state and especially NEA?  Sure it might only happen once every 20-30 years that they could win that game, but that's enough for ASU fans to never shut up about it.  The "almost win" in the NIT vs Nolan's first team is still something they talk about constantly, as is their WNIT win (seriously, WNIT).
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 10, 2012, 09:36:27 AM
I don't get the "play one game vs ASU in LR" thing.

What in the world does UA have to gain from that?

We already sell out WMS for cupcakes anyway, or if there are 1000 empty seats because UA didn't advertise the turnbacks that's nobody's fault.  ASU would not be content with just playing there and getting their 3000 ticket allotment and the same deal we give ULM, they would want more.

Lose that game and how bad does it look for fans in the Eastern half of the state and especially NEA?  Sure it might only happen once every 20-30 years that they could win that game, but that's enough for ASU fans to never shut up about it.  The "almost win" in the NIT vs Nolan's first team is still something they talk about constantly, as is their WNIT win (seriously, WNIT).

I don't disagree with any of that.
I originally brought it up as a killing two birds with one stone type thing...
In other words, I just pulled that out of my ass knowing a few people would go apeshit over it.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Biff Malibu on February 10, 2012, 09:37:08 AM
Brings up the question of how many Fayetteville area residents actually go to the LR games? I question because I have no idea. Guys on the woopigs that live in NWA...do any of y'all go to LR games? If not, why not?

I go to one, usually the first one, but I buy tickets to both LR games (4) and just sell them if I don't go.  Because of where Petrino has us now, I never have a problem getting my money back on tickets.  When we play LSU on the day after Thanksgiving I never go (except for Casey Dick's 3-17 game and Miracle on Markham 1, bc I lived in LR then).

I was discussing this yesterday with a fellow woopigger, and he wondered aloud how many games in War Memorial Stadium did Byran Jones get to watch. 

None that the UofA payed for since we can't host recruits on official visits there.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 10, 2012, 09:39:12 AM
None that the UofA payed for since we can't host recruits on official visits there.

Right, but that's avoiding his point completely. We all know about the recruiting aspects. No one disagrees there.
It's the same deal when we play in Dallas.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: sainthog on February 10, 2012, 09:47:34 AM
http://www.stadiumjourney.com/stadiums/donald-w.-reynolds-razorback-stadium-s405/

RRS-1
WMS - 0
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 10, 2012, 09:56:37 AM
I go to one, usually the first one, but I buy tickets to both LR games (4) and just sell them if I don't go.  Because of where Petrino has us now, I never have a problem getting my money back on tickets.  When we play LSU on the day after Thanksgiving I never go (except for Casey Dick's 3-17 game and Miracle on Markham 1, bc I lived in LR then).

The folks that buy tickets to both places won't be effected at all (except for a couple more trips). It's the folks the only buy season tickets to 1 place that will be effected. Long will see the LR only crowds money dry up and it's obvious to me the folks that have only RRS season tickets don't want to fork out money for 2 more games or they already would (possibly like the example WMR gave of never attending a LR game in the last 5 years). Would you lose some season ticket holders in Fayetteville by moving all the games there due to extra cost of season tickets ($500 for a family of 4 plus possible more ATC money...potentially and extra $1000 total out of pocket for these type ticket holders)? I think the answer is yes.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Biff Malibu on February 10, 2012, 10:08:29 AM
Would you lose some season ticket holders in Fayetteville by moving all the games there due to extra cost of season tickets ($500 for a family of 4 plus possible more ATC money...potentially and extra $1000 total out of pocket for these type ticket holders)? I think the answer is yes.

I respectfully disagree, I believe there are a lot of RRS ticket holders who would buy more tickets if they could along with transplants to NWA that are not ticket holders yet.  If 10-15k tickets came open because we moved all the games to RRS, I think they get gobbled up in a hurry.

Right, but that's avoiding his point completely. We all know about the recruiting aspects. No one disagrees there.
It's the same deal when we play in Dallas.

I don't think it's avoiding it completely.  I doubt he and his family were attending multiple games on their own dime, and if they were the biggest cost is going to be the tickets, not the extra tank of gas to get from LR to Fayetteville.

The Dallas game is a different animal than LR because of the prestige and exposure, not only nationally on TV but in Texas and the DFW area.  As well as the financial aspect of it.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 10, 2012, 10:13:42 AM
I don't think it's avoiding it completely.  I doubt he and his family were attending multiple games on their own dime, and if they were the biggest cost is going to be the tickets, not the extra tank of gas to get from LR to Fayetteville.

With all due respect, yes. That's missing the point completely. Go read his entire post again. It's not about him going to games on a personal level.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Clark on February 10, 2012, 10:14:15 AM
Years ago, we weren't on TV that often. Seeing the Hogs play more than twice meant heading to the stadium if you lived in Eudora, Magnolia, Corning, etc. Today's television contracts, Internet coverage, etc, the Razorback brand is much more accessible. We don't have to play in Little Rock for the Drunk Guy in DeWitt to see us. He can puke on his couch watching us in HD.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: onetimer on February 10, 2012, 10:29:11 AM
Years ago, we weren't on TV that often. Seeing the Hogs play more than twice meant heading to the stadium if you lived in Eudora, Magnolia, Corning, etc. Today's television contracts, Internet coverage, etc, the Razorback brand is much more accessible. We don't have to play in Little Rock for the Drunk Guy in DeWitt to see us. He can puke on his couch watching us in HD.

Gotta drive 7 miles to Missouri if you want to get drunk and watch the Razorbacks if you live here.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 10, 2012, 10:35:47 AM
I respectfully disagree, I believe there are a lot of RRS ticket holders who would buy more tickets if they could along with transplants to NWA that are not ticket holders yet.  If 10-15k tickets came open because we moved all the games to RRS, I think they get gobbled up in a hurry.

I don't think it's avoiding it completely.  I doubt he and his family were attending multiple games on their own dime, and if they were the biggest cost is going to be the tickets, not the extra tank of gas to get from LR to Fayetteville.


How are 10-15k tickets gonna 'come open'? RRS is still gonna seat what it does right now if games are moved starting in 2013, say. Why do you think those tickets would get gobbled up when we don't sell out season tickets as it is? Maybe we will this year with Bama and LSU both at RRS and our top 10 ranking but that'd be a first.

There's never been a game at RRS where I couldn't walk up and buy a ticket outside the stadium. Texas, USC, any Bama game (save 2010, I wasn't at that one), any Auburn game....tickets are readily available now for RRS games. I don't understand why all of sudden season tickets would be snatched up is 1-2 more crap games were added to the RRS slate.

Personally, if all games are moved, I'll still go to 1-2 games per year at RRS. I've been going to games since I can't even remember. I've seen pics of me at the '70 Sugar Bowl with my folks when I was 1.5 years old. My first game I remember in LR was '74 USC...my first Fayetteville game was Texas '77. I've been to the Cotton Bowl 5 times (including this year) and Sugar Bowl 3 times (including last year), so I'll still go to most all the big games but financially, there's no way I could get season tickets. That's why I had to give up mine at RRS in 2008. A 4 year old and a 3 month old will force these changes. I'm not mad about it, it's just what I had to do. It's life.

I'm not totally against moving all of them to RRS (despite living 10 min from WMS)...what I'm trying to say is that IF ALL are moved there will be repercussions among fans that some here aren't thinking of in their cries to move them all. Maybe I'm crying wolf about nothing, I don't know. I still think if it was an easy solution Long would've already stated his case, made his call and moved on to something else.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 10, 2012, 10:37:30 AM
Brings up the question of how many Fayetteville area residents actually go to the LR games? I question because I have no idea. Guys on the woopigs that live in NWA...do any of y'all go to LR games? If not, why not?

The last time I was in LR for anything was for the 2006 LSU game.  I don't go to LR games anymore.  As for why, various reasons.  I have no family connections down there like I used to.  The last time I went I noted how cramped the legroom was and how over the top the tailgating was and that apart from the actual game itself, I didn't really enjoy going to games there anymore. Its just a different scene, a different crowd and a different feeling.

That next year, I upgraded my seats in RRS in a major way, too.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: likeupthisramp on February 10, 2012, 10:39:03 AM
Brings up the question of how many Fayetteville area residents actually go to the LR games? I question because I have no idea. Guys on the woopigs that live in NWA...do any of y'all go to LR games? If not, why not?
I am from Central Ark, but have lived in NWA for 14 yrs and still buy 4 tickets to LR games.  I have been thinking of giving up LR tickets for a few years since I am the only one in the family that goes anymore due to oldest having high school stuff going on Saturdays.  I can generally (but not always for the non-conf games) sell the extra tickets, but, it is losing the donation part that hurts more.

Even for Fayetteville games it is getting tougher to justify the expense of the tickets and donations.  Our "all-in" cost per game probably approaches $300/seat - in all honesty, while my wife likes going, she probably does not get $300 worth of entertainment  from Missouri State type games.  For us at least, it is more difficult to consider the cost to be a reasonable expenditure for family entertainment for Fayetteville games, much less LR games.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 10, 2012, 10:56:39 AM

HOLY aMm.

You're either that dumb, or you just literally have not read what me and Ty have said AT ALL. There's no point in repeatedly telling you the same thing over and over. I'm not insane, you're just dumb.

For being so dumb, I at least make an effort to see your points. I try to respond. I try to fucking understand.  I get that you guys feel, in your opinion (because it most certainly isn't a fucking fact), our fandom would eventually start to evaporate.  I understand why you think that.  Hint: you're pussies who don't really see the UofA as being all that special. But hey, if you'd rather call me dumb than at least try to address my points, more power to you.  It is the internet, after all.  Trolling is how it's done, no doubt.

Seriously. I've asked 2 very simple fucking questions in this thread that no one has attempted to answer.

1) For Arkansas to LOSE fans/potential fans, someone else will have to gain them or those fans will just stop being fans of anyone.  So which do you think it is?  Do you think we lose fans to some other school? If so, who?  Or do you think these people will just not care about college football at all?

2) If we're all cool with keeping 1 game in LR, which seems to be the consensus, what are the conditions of said game? Are we going to say, "Hey LR, you can have 1 crappy non-con game every year for the rest of eternity.  You don't even have to add luxury suites, chair back seating, or additional seats period!"  Or will we insist upon improvements? 

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 10, 2012, 11:10:55 AM
I am from Central Ark, but have lived in NWA for 14 yrs and still buy 4 tickets to LR games.  I have been thinking of giving up LR tickets for a few years since I am the only one in the family that goes anymore due to oldest having high school stuff going on Saturdays.  I can generally (but not always for the non-conf games) sell the extra tickets, but, it is losing the donation part that hurts more.

Even for Fayetteville games it is getting tougher to justify the expense of the tickets and donations.  Our "all-in" cost per game probably approaches $300/seat - in all honesty, while my wife likes going, she probably does not get $300 worth of entertainment  from Missouri State type games.  For us at least, it is more difficult to consider the cost to be a reasonable expenditure for family entertainment for Fayetteville games, much less LR games.
THIS kinda talk is what I'm trying to refer to (maybe not doing a very good job). Every fan has their point where they must stop either giving or going or both.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Sweet River Baines on February 10, 2012, 11:13:43 AM

1) For Arkansas to LOSE fans/potential fans, someone else will have to gain them or those fans will just stop being fans of anyone.  So which do you think it is?  Do you think we lose fans to some other school? If so, who?  Or do you think these people will just not care about college football at all?

 

You can be a fan of a team, but not buy tickets, donate any money or go to the games, correct?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 10, 2012, 11:16:01 AM
I'd quote one of you on this one, but so many of you are saying things along these lines:

Quote
If we move the games there will be an impact to the fans financially.  There will be an impact to our future fan base.  Those are just facts.  It'll happen.  And you NWA elitists need to realize that...

Blah, blah. Something like that.

Bull. Fucking. Shit.

Stop stating opinion as fact.  The only FACTS about moving the games FROM LR to Fayetteville are positive.  EVERY other opinion that you guys are disguising as "fact" is nothing but hyperbole. 

Here are some FACTS:
Arkansas is the only school in the SEC that foregoes 2 opportunities every year to host official visitors on campus. 
20,000+ additional hog fans could see us play those 2 games. 
Arkansas foregoes, we think, $1-2MM in income for every game we play in LR, which I do not think includes concessions.
Arkansas has a smaller budget than our chief competitors.
For 100+ years, Arkansas has been THE team in Arkansas.

We don't know, for a FACT, that anything would negatively influence the program as a result of moving the LR games.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 10, 2012, 11:19:19 AM
You can be a fan of a team, but not buy tickets, donate any money or go to the games, correct?

But that's not their point.  Their point is that Arkansas' fan base would fade.  In your answer, the household would still be Hog fans.

But if we're cool with letting a fraction of the fan base hold the program hostage then, yes, your answer would apply.  Of course, that's just an opinion. We don't know for a FACT that any fans would turn their backs on the program and stop giving.  As a matter of fact, even Stephens himself could come out after the fact and continue to donate.  FACT is, we won't know what will actually happen until the shift happens.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Sweet River Baines on February 10, 2012, 11:24:16 AM
But that's not their point.  Their point is that Arkansas' fan base would fade.  In your answer, the household would still be Hog fans.

But if we're cool with letting a fraction of the fan base hold the program hostage then, yes, your answer would apply.  Of course, that's just an opinion. We don't know for a FACT that any fans would turn their backs on the program and stop giving.  As a matter of fact, even Stephens himself could come out after the fact and continue to donate. FACT is, we won't know what will actually happen until the shift happens.

So your FACTS in your post above are mute...
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Biff Malibu on February 10, 2012, 11:28:17 AM
How are 10-15k tickets gonna 'come open'? RRS is still gonna seat what it does right now if games are moved starting in 2013, say. Why do you think those tickets would get gobbled up when we don't sell out season tickets as it is? Maybe we will this year with Bama and LSU both at RRS and our top 10 ranking but that'd be a first.

I'm throwing out an arbitrary number for the sake of arguement.  You say that the added expense to Fay season ticket holders with the addition of two extra games will cause some to drop tickets.  That may be, but my point remains that people that can afford the addition of more games will gobble those tickets up.  To your other point about RRS not being sold out now...well, that would be just the upper corners and the tickets we allow the visitors to have.  Good to decent seats will get taken.  Also, I don't really get your arguement about always being able to buy tickets outside the stadium, if we were playing the Dallas Cowboys and the game had been a sellout for a year, you'd still be able to buy tickets outside the stadium.

With all due respect, yes. That's missing the point completely. Go read his entire post again. It's not about him going to games on a personal level.
I'm using Byran Jones and his family as an example because he was mentioned.  I don't believe people who have to drive farther to Razorback games are going to stop being fans or stop going (in droves, mind you) if we moved games out of LR.  I seriously doubt you are going to see fewer Razorback shirts at the Warren WMT because we aren't playing twice a year in LR.  Maybe 20 years ago, but not now with every single game being televised.  Again, as someone else pointed out, there has to be a closer alternative...are they going to become UAPB or UCA fans instead of Hog fans??
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 10, 2012, 11:43:08 AM
So your FACTS in your post above are mute...

Why would they be moot points? They are facts. We have no indications, other than hyperbole, that any of that would change.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 10, 2012, 11:43:36 AM
I'd quote one of you on this one, but so many of you are saying things along these lines:

Blah, blah. Something like that.

Bull. fricking. aMm.

Stop stating opinion as fact.  The only FACTS about moving the games FROM LR to Fayetteville are positive.  EVERY other opinion that you guys are disguising as "fact" is nothing but hyperbole. 

Here are some FACTS:
Arkansas is the only school in the SEC that foregoes 2 3 opportunities every year to host official visitors on campus. 
20,000+ additional hog fans could see us play those 2 games. 
Arkansas foregoes, we think, $1-2 MM in income for every game we play in LR, which I do not think includes concessions.
Arkansas has a smaller budget than our chief competitors.
For 100+ years, Arkansas has been THE team in Arkansas.

We don't know, for a FACT, that anything would negatively influence the program as a result of moving the LR games.
Alot of holes in these FACTS:

1. Who would we bring in for an official visit the 2nd week of September for the big Mizzou St game? Official visits happen for SEC games or big weekends in January during basketball season. See the Michigan hoops game.

2. We also choose to forgo a recruiting weekend to play in Jerry World.

3.WMS hold 55K. That 20k could see us play is a fact. Reality says only 10-15k more at most would see the crap games. 75k for ULM or NMexST aren't walking thru that turnstile especially since a top 10 USC-E only draws 73K this year. We didn't draw 75k for a home game this year at all which would be needed to reach your 20K more seeing the Hogs play.

4. When you put 'we think' inside any info.....it's not FACT.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: hogfan58 on February 10, 2012, 11:52:32 AM
I don't understand the logic that in order to be a fan, you either had to attend UA or go to games. I have relatives, both alive and deceased, that did neither. And as many have stated, in this age of every game being on tv or streamed on the net, the visibility is MUCH greater than it was back in the day. So I just don't get the correlation between not playing games in WMS and losing fans when every game is on tv anyway
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 10, 2012, 11:58:09 AM
Seriously. I've asked 2 very simple fricking questions in this thread that no one has attempted to answer.

1) For Arkansas to LOSE fans/potential fans, someone else will have to gain them or those fans will just stop being fans of anyone.  So which do you think it is?  Do you think we lose fans to some other school? If so, who?  Or do you think these people will just not care about college football at all?

2) If we're all cool with keeping 1 game in LR, which seems to be the consensus, what are the conditions of said game? Are we going to say, "Hey LR, you can have 1 crappy non-con game every year for the rest of eternity.  You don't even have to add luxury suites, chair back seating, or additional seats period!"  Or will we insist upon improvements?

1.) I've said repeatedly... REPEATEDLY...  THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE WE WILL LOSE FANS. I HAVE LITERALLY HAD TO SAY THIS IN EVERY GOD DAMN RESPONSE. I'm not explaining that answer again.

2.) There will obviously be conditions on keeping the stadium in upstanding condition. Which it currently is. If the powers that be want them to add seats/suites (which, btw, that new pressbox added suites), then yeah, you write that in a 10 year or so contract.

I think we almost all agree on one game, because I think most of us realize there are some issues and repercussions with "ripping off the band-aid" that no one in this administration appears committed to dealing with...
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 10, 2012, 12:06:57 PM
I don't understand the logic that in order to be a fan, you either had to attend UA or go to games. I have relatives, both alive and deceased, that did neither. And as many have stated, in this age of every game being on tv or streamed on the net, the visibility is MUCH greater than it was back in the day. So I just don't get the correlation between not playing games in WMS and losing fans when every game is on tv anyway

The visibility IS much greater.

However, what happens when 20 years down the line, the KATVs, KTHVs, whatever, stop sending people up to Fayetteville every weekend?
We can sit here and say that people would get their news, hype, etc. from other places. We can say they could still watch the games on tv... but would they? We don't have the answer to that. I grew up a Razorback fan, because by god, I'm from Arkansas. My family is from Arkansas. And that's just what we did. That's pretty unique. I didn't show up to 4th grade and have someone ask me if I was Auburn or Alabama like some kid in Birmingham does every day. I was already a born-Razorback then. I'm not saying the WMS games going completely away would immediately end that. I'm just saying it would impact it in the future down the line. Nobody can honestly say that's false.

I'm on record as saying one game every other year would meet some resistance, but would be just fine.
Maybe that includes a deal with some nearby SunBelt or even La Tech or someone where it's technically a home-and-home in Fayetteville and LR, but we're selling the seats for your home game in WMS.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 10, 2012, 12:11:28 PM
1. Who would we bring in for an official visit the 2nd week of September for the big Mizzou St game? Official visits happen for SEC games or big weekends in January during basketball season. See the Michigan hoops game.

Yes, you're absolutely right.  But, unfortunately, that doesn't dismiss the possibility that a random recruit would want to come see us on a particular weekend for his own personal reasons (bye week from his high school schedule, work schedule, etc).  The majority of our recruiting will go down during the big games, sure.  But lets not close ourselves off from ANY recruit.  We, supposedly, want to win a national title.  WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU PUT YOURSELF BEHIND THE EIGHT BALL?  We are in the worst state in the SEC for home state talent.  We don't have the recruiting advantages of Bama, LSU, FL, UGA, etc.  So why turn your noses up to ANYTHING that might improve our chances to land said random recruit?

2. We also choose to forgo a recruiting weekend to play in Jerry World.

Jerry World IS a recruiting trip.  And it doesn't cost us $1-2MM.  But if LR wants to start paying the UofA $5MM per game, it'd be a helluva lot easier to ignore the discrepancies.  At least we could up our recruiting budget.  But there's a difference between playing a game in a state that's completely obsessed with the SEC but lacks a lot of D1 talent, versus playing in a state with only a passing interest in the SEC and more D1 talent than they know what to do with.

3.WMS hold 55K. That 20k could see us play is a fact. Reality says only 10-15k more at most would see the crap games. 75k for ULM or NMexST aren't walking thru that turnstile especially since a top 10 USC-E only draws 73K this year. We didn't draw 75k for a home game this year at all which would be needed to reach your 20K more seeing the Hogs play.

It's potential. You can't argue with POTENTIAL attendance.  Up to 76K can see a razorback game.  Up to 55K can see a game in LR.  >20K extra butts in the seats, potentially.  But even if it was only 10K, that's still over half a million in extra revenue (being conservative at $55/tkt), not to mention the savings of not having to pay for the LR games.  But that's 10,000 extra individuals.  Let's say that's 5,000 father/son combos. Or 2500 families.  You want to keep hog fans being hog fans? What's better than giving them more opportunities? Alabama has games with empty seats.  LSU has games with empty seats.  USCe has games with empty seats.  Shit happens. It's not a damning by-product to have empty seats for cupcakes.  But in the case of college football, more butts in the seats is more butts in the seats.


4. When you put 'we think' inside any info.....it's not FACT.

You're right. But the most recent article that I remember said we lose $2mm/per, and that it didn't include concessions.  Answer the call will have eaten into that, I'm sure.  The $10 surcharge x 55000 = $550M.  So instead of losing $2mm, we lose $1.5.  That's why I said 1-2MM.  But, point take, I don't know HOW much we're losing now, exactly.  I can only make an educated guess. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: CJLR on February 10, 2012, 12:15:08 PM
"If we move the games there will be an impact to the fans financially.  There will be an impact to our future fan base.  Those are just facts.  It'll happen.  And you NWA elitists need to realize that..."

This is completely true.  I live in LR, make a decent livings, and donate to the foundation (tush hog).  I buy only LR tix at the moment because I can't afford to buy Fayetteville season tickets - I should say, I can afford the tickets, but I can't afford going up for every game and everything that entails - gas, food, hotel, booze, etc.  And before you start saying, you could drive up and drive back, I've done it quite a few times and it absolutely fricking sucks - I would imagine it would suck even more now with a kid.  And considering the fact that pretty much all of the games are on tv - pay-per-view or otherwise - it makes it even less enticing.

So, for me, if all the games were moved to Fayetteville in a few years, I would probably quit donating simply for the fact I can't justify spending money on a donation and tix that I likely won't use except for maybe two or three games a year.  I'd rather save the donation money and try to come across single game tickets for the games I can actually get to.

And just for the record, I have no problem with the LSU game being played in fayetteville.  It makes sense just as moving SC up there made sense.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 10, 2012, 12:22:28 PM
However, what happens when 20 years down the line, the KATVs, KTHVs, whatever, stop sending people up to Fayetteville every weekend?

From a business perspective, what sense would it make for the local media to stop following the Razorbacks?  You think they'd actually risk alienating what would be the largest alumni base in the state? To cover who, exactly? Do you really think that would happen?

We can sit here and say that people would get their news, hype, etc. from other places. We can say they could still watch the games on tv... but would they? We don't have the answer to that. I grew up a Razorback fan, because by god, I'm from Arkansas. My family is from Arkansas. And that's just what we did. That's pretty unique. I didn't show up to 4th grade and have someone ask me if I was Auburn or Alabama like some kid in Birmingham does every day. I was already a born-Razorback then. I'm not saying the WMS games going completely away would immediately end that. I'm just saying it would impact it in the future down the line. Nobody can honestly say that's false.

You're right. We could lose 1 fan an your argument would hold water. But I thought you just said, above, that we WOULDN'T lose fans? Make up your mind. And despite how special your story is, Auburn and Alabama still have plenty of fans to support their programs.  So maybe we lose some of the half-ass fans and their families (I still don't see real men all of the sudden saying, "fuck the razorback," women maybe).
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: radioman on February 10, 2012, 12:24:34 PM
1.  Official visits could occur for home LSU games,  if they were on campus.   Many high school football players are finished with their season by that weekend,  and many of their parents have the proceeding Friday off from work, so travel would be easier.

2.  The game in Dallas has been about a good pay day and exposure in Texas.  That game is arguably helpful for recruiting.   WMS games do not do this. 

I have accepted the fact that the UofA might not have the political will to leave WMS.   If it ever happens,  we better get onboard and be happy about it, if we love the Razorbacks.   Along the same lines,  if the administration decides to keep playing there, I am not going to get upset about it for the sake of not arguing with all of the fans, who want those games.


Alot of holes in these FACTS:

1. Who would we bring in for an official visit the 2nd week of September for the big Mizzou St game? Official visits happen for SEC games or big weekends in January during basketball season. See the Michigan hoops game.

2. We also choose to forgo a recruiting weekend to play in Jerry World.

3.WMS hold 55K. That 20k could see us play is a fact. Reality says only 10-15k more at most would see the crap games. 75k for ULM or NMexST aren't walking thru that turnstile especially since a top 10 USC-E only draws 73K this year. We didn't draw 75k for a home game this year at all which would be needed to reach your 20K more seeing the Hogs play.

4. When you put 'we think' inside any info.....it's not FACT.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: WPFM on February 10, 2012, 12:25:04 PM
And what for? to destroy 60 years of tradition and kill something that has been such a big part of the program? Okay.

Great point.

(http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2006/1214/ncf_i_broyles_195.jpg)
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: bakervscarrr on February 10, 2012, 12:25:08 PM
Something to at least think about.

One of the reasons that some people were SO confident that we'd get DGB was that we felt his hometown, Springfield, is somewhat insulated from the major in-state school that happened to be our major competition for him.

Those who were so confident would allay the worries of those who were concerned about Mizzou's home-state advantage by pointing out that Springfield wasn't really a Mizzou town.  It was a push at best, and quite possibly more of a Hog town than anything else.

How could Springfield be so conflicted?  They know they are within the state of Missouri, right? and that there is only one major college football team there?  They command the support from all corners of the state, right? 

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 10, 2012, 12:39:33 PM
1.) I've said repeatedly... REPEATEDLY...  THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE WE WILL LOSE FANS. I HAVE LITERALLY HAD TO SAY THIS IN EVERY GOD DAMN RESPONSE. I'm not explaining that answer again.

Then what difference does it make if the media stops covering the Hogs (which is an asinine assertion, by the way)?  You've said the media would stop covering the hogs and we would stop gaining hog fans.  That is to assume that they would have otherwise been hog fans if not for the lack of media coverage.  So the precipice of your argument is the media argument.  Okay, so they have 4 or 5 minutes on Saturday night to discuss sports.  It's fall 2016.  The following teams played in Arkansas: UofA, ASU, UCA?

2.) There will obviously be conditions on keeping the stadium in upstanding condition. Which it currently is. If the powers that be want them to add seats/suites (which, btw, that new pressbox added suites), then yeah, you write that in a 10 year or so contract.

Thank you for finally addressing that point.  But do you think having a stadium that is in decent condition is enough? DO you think they need to add seats. I'd be fine with 1 game per year in the interim, but if they want to keep doing it they need to add seats. Who pays for the seats?  At what point does the cost become too much of a burden on tax payers? That's a reality that has to be looked in the eye.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 10, 2012, 12:46:51 PM
Something to at least think about.

One of the reasons that some people were SO confident that we'd get DGB was that we felt his hometown, Springfield, is somewhat insulated from the major in-state school that happened to be our major competition for him.

Those who were so confident would allay the worries of those who were concerned about Mizzou's home-state advantage by pointing out that Springfield wasn't really a Mizzou town.  It was a push at best, and quite possibly more of a Hog town than anything else.

How could Springfield be so conflicted?  They know they are within the state of Missouri, right? and that there is only one major college football team there?  They command the support from all corners of the state, right?

I can look at your post and make the argument either way.  We've been playing games in LR for decades. And there's NO mistaking LR as a town for any other school but Arkansas.  But that hasn't kept elite LR talent from leaving the state. 

You can't let the actions of 17-18 year old kids dictate the direction of the program.  You can't let the posturing of supposed fans and their threats to stop supporting the program dictate the direction of the program. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 10, 2012, 12:57:43 PM
I really hope any changes will come with the PTB further improving gameday atmosphere in Fayetteville.  I'm not talking just about investments in tailgating infrastructure, but also attention to parking, streets, traffic flow, etc.

Sold out games in Fayetteville overload the infrastructure as it is.  They need to work to make coming to campus as pain-free as possible.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Cerdo on February 10, 2012, 12:59:45 PM
I don't worry about my alma mater losing fans in Central and Southern AR. I do think a special type game down there every year would CREATE fans though, down the road... or continue creating fans.

I don't plan out of fear but instead try to take advantages of opportunities. 

By the way, I'm no recruitnik by any means, but it keeps getting mentioned in this thread that the Hogs don't use cupcake weekends to host major recruits and that is absolutely not true.  We've hosted a bajillion top recruits during cupcake game weekends.   
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 10, 2012, 01:00:46 PM
I really hope any changes will come with the PTB further improving gameday atmosphere in Fayetteville.  I'm not talking just about investments in tailgating infrastructure, but also attention to parking, streets, traffic flow, etc.

Sold out games in Fayetteville overload the infrastructure as it is.  They need to work to make coming to campus as pain-free as possible.

Agreed.  It'd be cool if they could somehow buy up all of the property that's west of the University, extending to 540, and add a big 4 lane road.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 10, 2012, 01:06:22 PM
"If we move the games there will be an impact to the fans financially.  There will be an impact to our future fan base.  Those are just facts.  It'll happen.  And you NWA elitists need to realize that..."

This is completely true.  I live in LR, make a decent livings, and donate to the foundation (tush hog).  I buy only LR tix at the moment because I can't afford to buy Fayetteville season tickets - I should say, I can afford the tickets, but I can't afford going up for every game and everything that entails - gas, food, hotel, booze, etc.  And before you start saying, you could drive up and drive back, I've done it quite a few times and it absolutely fricking sucks - I would imagine it would suck even more now with a kid.  And considering the fact that pretty much all of the games are on tv - pay-per-view or otherwise - it makes it even less enticing.

So, for me, if all the games were moved to Fayetteville in a few years, I would probably quit donating simply for the fact I can't justify spending money on a donation and tix that I likely won't use except for maybe two or three games a year.  I'd rather save the donation money and try to come across single game tickets for the games I can actually get to.

And just for the record, I have no problem with the LSU game being played in fayetteville.  It makes sense just as moving SC up there made sense.
Move all the games and there will be many more, just like you, in this scenario.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 10, 2012, 01:12:27 PM
I don't worry about my alma mater losing fans in Central and Southern AR. I do think a special type game down there every year would CREATE fans though, down the road... or continue creating fans.

I don't plan out of fear but instead try to take advantages of opportunities. 

By the way, I'm no recruitnik by any means, but it keeps getting mentioned in this thread that the Hogs don't use cupcake weekends to host major recruits and that is absolutely not true.  We've hosted a bajillion top recruits during cupcake game weekends.   
The Troy game this year was used for recruiting? Maybe for unofficials, not for many, if any, official visits. Unofficials can be made in LR too, right, or am I mistaken?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: bakervscarrr on February 10, 2012, 01:12:52 PM
I can look at your post and make the argument either way.  We've been playing games in LR for decades. And there's NO mistaking LR as a town for any other school but Arkansas.  But that hasn't kept elite LR talent from leaving the state. 

You can't let the actions of 17-18 year old kids dictate the direction of the program.  You can't let the posturing of supposed fans and their threats to stop supporting the program dictate the direction of the program.

I wasn't really talking about Little Rock as much as trying to point out that towns on the fringe of a state can be kind of up for grabs.  Playing games in Little Rock helped lock our borders down as far as fans go. It's unfathomable that any town in Arkansas, even Lake Village, West Memphis, Texarkana, Blytheville, etc, would be anything other than an overwhelming Razorback stronghold. The discussion that was had here regarding Springfield and its allegiances would never be had over an Arkansas town.

It's a unique situation. We've done unique things to make it so. I think you can make a positive correlation. Take games out and I believe you open that possibility up. An advantage we've always held over everyone else would be in jeopardy. And nobody truly knows how the numbers would shake out.

But, hey, if the benefits outweigh the potential losses, then pull the trigger. If it regionalizes the university to an extent, then that's what happens. Certainly wouldn't be the first time.  We're making gains elsewhere anyway. 

(Notice I said "we", despite having gone to school at OBU and grown up in South Arkansas with WMS as the impetus for my fandom. People like me may go away some, but they'll be replaced by people like you, from out of state.)
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 10, 2012, 01:20:15 PM
From a business perspective, what sense would it make for the local media to stop following the Razorbacks?  You think they'd actually risk alienating what would be the largest alumni base in the state? To cover who, exactly? Do you really think that would happen?

You're right. We could lose 1 fan an your argument would hold water. But I thought you just said, above, that we WOULDN'T lose fans? Make up your mind. And despite how special your story is, Auburn and Alabama still have plenty of fans to support their programs.  So maybe we lose some of the half-ass fans and their families (I still don't see real men all of the sudden saying, "frick the razorback," women maybe).
Jesus, your thick.

Where did I say, we'd "lose" a fan. I didn't. I'm talking about the atmosphere of kids growing up in this state. The atmosphere of insanity around everything Razorback all through the state down to Junction City.

That presence in Little Rock matters towards that. Period.

The band-aid option just serves to piss a lot of folks and money off on both sides, when the one game per year, then maybe one game every other year would ween people off of it.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: cinghiale on February 10, 2012, 01:41:42 PM
...  I seriously doubt you are going to see fewer Razorback shirts at the Warren WMT because we aren't playing twice a year in LR.  ...

... Warren doesn't have a WMT ... guess they heard the Razorback games might be moved from WMS and decided to locate elsewhere ...
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 10, 2012, 01:52:44 PM
Jesus, your thick.

Where did I say, we'd "lose" a fan. I didn't. I'm talking about the atmosphere of kids growing up in this state. The atmosphere of insanity around everything Razorback all through the state down to Junction City.

You said we'd gain fans.  If we lose what would have otherwise gained, is that not a loss in your estimation?  Atmosphere is great, but it's not a guarantee.  If we got back to 4-8 seasons that would do a lot more towards hurting our atmosphere because our competition would have been so stellar during that time frame.  Because of widespread, nationwide coverage, the best thing we can do is make the program as strong as possible.  The football program.  Not a fan outreach program. The football program. 

That presence in Little Rock matters towards that. Period.

How about we play a game in SE Arkansas instead?  Then we can have this atmosphere thing covered from corner to corner.  Why stop at LR?  Fuck.  Let's play a game in every corner of the state on a rotating basis.  If you want to create an atmosphere such as the one you speak, why stop at LR?

The band-aid option just serves to piss a lot of folks and money off on both sides, when the one game per year, then maybe one game every other year would ween people off of it.

What would piss them off more? Moving all games to Fayetteville now, at the height of our program? Or waiting however long it takes before we actually can't afford to have the games in LR anymore?  My presumption is that sooner or later, all games will be in Fayetteville.  If that's the case, i'd rather we do it now (when fan support is so high).  If we let this carry on another 5, 10, 15 years and THEN pull the plug in somewhat of a downturn, or after millions have been pumped into WMS, I just see that as a huge waste.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: CJLR on February 10, 2012, 01:54:19 PM
Move all the games and there will be many more, just like you, in this scenario.

I should have included in my post that the group I go to games with is generally in the same boat - early 30s, good jobs, just starting families, and alumni of the University.

And for those that say they don't care about losing fans to "their alma mater" in central and south Arkansas, F.U.C.K. you.  It's my alma mater too, twice over, and I do worry about it, so fuck off.  On that point, I love how several posters have talked the most shit about LR games and losing "half-ass fans and their families," yet have been to zero LR games in the past few years.  Why is that I wonder?  Is it not worth the expense of coming down here?

No one on this board, at least that I am aware of, is saying that the LSU game should not be moved, or that it is not entirely unreasonable for LR to only have one game.  But having a presence in LR is important - whether it be one game or two.  And pissing all over LR games only adds to the perception that you fucks that are lucky enough to live in NWA (or reasonable driving distance) are fucking arrogant and conceited cock-suckers. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 10, 2012, 02:00:08 PM
You said we'd gain fans.  If we lose what would have otherwise gained, is that not a loss in your estimation?  Atmosphere is great, but it's not a guarantee.  If we got back to 4-8 seasons that would do a lot more towards hurting our atmosphere because our competition would have been so stellar during that time frame.  Because of widespread, nationwide coverage, the best thing we can do is make the program as strong as possible.  The football program.  Not a fan outreach program. The football program. 

How about we play a game in SE Arkansas instead?  Then we can have this atmosphere thing covered from corner to corner.  Why stop at LR?  frick.  Let's play a game in every corner of the state on a rotating basis.  If you want to create an atmosphere such as the one you speak, why stop at LR?

What would piss them off more? Moving all games to Fayetteville now, at the height of our program? Or waiting however long it takes before we actually can't afford to have the games in LR anymore?  My presumption is that sooner or later, all games will be in Fayetteville.  If that's the case, i'd rather we do it now (when fan support is so high).  If we let this carry on another 5, 10, 15 years and THEN pull the plug in somewhat of a downturn, or after millions have been pumped into WMS, I just see that as a huge waste.


You're just swimming in semantics, now.

I'm not rehashing one more god damn thing, for you.


Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 10, 2012, 02:07:08 PM

You're just swimming in semantics, now.

I'm not rehashing one more god damn thing, for you.

(http://www.brendanwalsh.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/remaincalm-01.jpg)
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Biff Malibu on February 10, 2012, 02:08:55 PM
I should have included in my post that the group I go to games with is generally in the same boat - early 30s, good jobs, just starting families, and alumni of the University.

And for those that say they don't care about losing fans to "their alma mater" in central and south Arkansas, F.U.C.K. you.  It's my alma mater too, twice over, and I do worry about it, so fuck off.  On that point, I love how several posters have talked the most shit about LR games and losing "half-ass fans and their families," yet have been to zero LR games in the past few years.  Why is that I wonder?  Is it not worth the expense of coming down here?

No one on this board, at least that I am aware of, is saying that the LSU game should not be moved, or that it is not entirely unreasonable for LR to only have one game.  But having a presence in LR is important - whether it be one game or two.  And pissing all over LR games only adds to the perception that you fucks that are lucky enough to live in NWA (or reasonable driving distance) are fucking arrogant and conceited cock-suckers.

First, the Hogs are not going to lose fans if there are not games in LR anymore.  That's a bullshit strawman argument.  Do you honestly think Bama lost fans when they moved the one or two games a year in Birmingham back to campus??  Horseshit...

Second, is it not worth the expense of coming from NWA to LR for a game??  Yes, it's worth it, but a lot of people don't because it's nothing more than a novelty now and they'd rather watch it on their 60' HD flat screen than get crammed onto aluminum bleachers.  I think only us NWA elitists have access to 60' flat screens...

...and on that topic...Third, stop it with you inferiority "elitist" NWA bullshit....anybody who runs out that tired crap should have their opinion automatically disqualified from consideration.  IT'S WHERE THE FUCKING CAMPUS IS! 

The revenue that is lost from LR only donations if games are moved will be made up by the extra revenue generated by have said games on campus.  period...end of story.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Mike Slive on February 10, 2012, 02:19:33 PM
I should have included in my post that the group I go to games with is generally in the same boat - early 30s, good jobs, just starting families, and alumni of the University.

And for those that say they don't care about losing fans to "their alma mater" in central and south Arkansas, F.U.C.K. you.  It's my alma mater too, twice over, and I do worry about it, so frick off.  On that point, I love how several posters have talked the most aMm about LR games and losing "half-ass fans and their families," yet have been to zero LR games in the past few years.  Why is that I wonder?  Is it not worth the expense of coming down here?

No one on this board, at least that I am aware of, is saying that the LSU game should not be moved, or that it is not entirely unreasonable for LR to only have one game.  But having a presence in LR is important - whether it be one game or two.  And pissing all over LR games only adds to the perception that you fricks that are lucky enough to live in NWA (or reasonable driving distance) are fricking arrogant and conceited cock-suckers.

Will you raise your kids to be Hog fans if they move the games?  Will you stop rooting for the Hogs around your kids?  I am a Cowboy's fan and never saw them in person but my Dad was a fan so I followed his footsteps.  Dallas isn't even in the state yet there are a lot of Cowboys fans in this state.  Did they use to play games here or something?  I wonder why a team 5 hours away can maintain fans from another state when they don't even play in this state?  Is it because that's what regional Pro team we have close to here?  Would the Hogs be considered in LR's region if they only played games on campus?  Even the AR media covers the Cowboys more than other Pro teams, why?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 10, 2012, 02:23:41 PM
Leaving 1 non-conf game in LR, and taking a 1-1.5mil hit in the pocketbook to keep all parties happy seems a small price to pay vs the unknown risk of pulling all of them. But it's Long's call, not mine or yours.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Biff Malibu on February 10, 2012, 02:37:53 PM
Leaving 1 non-conf game in LR, and taking a 1-1.5mil hit in the pocketbook to keep all parties happy seems a small price to pay vs the unknown risk of pulling all of them. But it's Long's call, not mine or yours.

Well, it's not completely unknown.  It's not hard to look at the total amount in donations that come from people who only get LR tickets.  Of course, it's not that simple but an educated guess could be made.

As an "elitist" from NWA, I actually have no problem with one game a year in LR.  I'll still get my LR tickets and I'll just sell them if I don't go, I'm not having to make any larger of a donation to get those tickets anyway.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 10, 2012, 02:46:04 PM
And it's entirely possible that they could multiple variations of season ticket packages. 

You could have season ticket package A: All Fayetteville games.
Package B: Half the home games.  One stud team (LSU, Bama) included.
Package C: The other half.

You see that in other sports. It's easy to make participating in the program easy for all potential season ticket holders.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: CJLR on February 10, 2012, 02:46:37 PM
First, the Hogs are not going to lose fans if there are not games in LR anymore.  That's a bullshit strawman argument.  Do you honestly think Bama lost fans when they moved the one or two games a year in Birmingham back to campus??  Horseshit...

Second, is it not worth the expense of coming from NWA to LR for a game??  Yes, it's worth it, but a lot of people don't because it's nothing more than a novelty now and they'd rather watch it on their 60' HD flat screen than get crammed onto aluminum bleachers.  I think only us NWA elitists have access to 60' flat screens...

...and on that topic...Third, stop it with you inferiority "elitist" NWA bullshit....anybody who runs out that tired crap should have their opinion automatically disqualified from consideration.  IT'S WHERE THE fricking CAMPUS IS! 

The revenue that is lost from LR only donations if games are moved will be made up by the extra revenue generated by have said games on campus.  period...end of story.

Well, I guess since you ended your thoughts with a "period" every other viewpoint is invalid so I suppose I shouldn't even try but here goes.  To say that it is entirely a given that the UA won't lose any financial support by moving all of the games to Fayetteville is perhaps the stupidest shit I've read in this thread.  But I guess I forget that a "period" turns all speculation into pure fact so I'll go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt.  And to speculate that all the money that would be lost, would some how be magically made up of the difference in people coming up to Fayetteville vs LR, where do you think these people come from?  Here's some conjecture for you, if the Spring game attendance is any indication, it ain't NWA.  But I'm not going to rely on what I don't know.   

Here's what I do know, the UA would lose my donation.  Not because I am protesting anything and not because I'd suddenly disavowing my allegiance to the Hogs (which will never happen), but simply because it makes no economic sense for me to make a donation and buy season tickets.  And it makes no economic sense for me for one simple reason - the very "novelty" you speak of - of going up to Fayetteville to see us kick the shit out of a non-conference opponent 4-5 times out of 8 every year.       

And I'm not calling you an elitist, I'm calling you a conceited and arrogant cock-sucker.  In actuality, I feel much more of an elitist living in LR than NWA (as I should) but this isn't a thread about elitism, at least not for me.  BTW, I have a 70" TV.

   
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 10, 2012, 02:51:08 PM
And it's entirely possible that they could multiple variations of season ticket packages. 

You could have season ticket package A: All Fayetteville games.
Package B: Half the home games.  One stud team (LSU, Bama) included.
Package C: The other half.

You see that in other sports. It's easy to make participating in the program easy for all potential season ticket holders.
Funny, I was just talking with my brother and he said it'll come to a point where 2 families could pay for 4 season tickets and split them up with each group getting 4 games each. Plan B is basically the same thing type deal and I think would be a good alternative for alot of folks including my family.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 10, 2012, 03:05:34 PM
Funny, I was just talking with my brother and he said it'll come to a point where 2 families could pay for 4 season tickets and split them up with each group getting 4 games each. Plan B is basically the same thing type deal and I think would be a good alternative for alot of folks.

Shit, as a single male in his late 20's, even I might hook up with a plan like that. All you'd have to do is even up each option. If more pick one over the other, then one half just won't get as good seats as they want that year.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Biff Malibu on February 10, 2012, 03:22:24 PM
Well, I guess since you ended your thoughts with a "period" every other viewpoint is invalid so I suppose I shouldn't even try but here goes.  To say that it is entirely a given that the UA won't lose any financial support by moving all of the games to Fayetteville is perhaps the stupidest shit I've read in this thread.  But I guess I forget that a "period" turns all speculation into pure fact so I'll go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt.  And to speculate that all the money that would be lost, would some how be magically made up of the difference in people coming up to Fayetteville vs LR, where do you think these people come from?  Here's some conjecture for you, if the Spring game attendance is any indication, it ain't NWA.  But I'm not going to rely on what I don't know.   

Here's what I do know, the UA would lose my donation.  Not because I am protesting anything and not because I'd suddenly disavowing my allegiance to the Hogs (which will never happen), but simply because it makes no economic sense for me to make a donation and buy season tickets.  And it makes no economic sense for me for one simple reason - the very "novelty" you speak of - of going up to Fayetteville to see us kick the shit out of a non-conference opponent 4-5 times out of 8 every year.       

And I'm not calling you an elitist, I'm calling you a conceited and arrogant cock-sucker.  In actuality, I feel much more of an elitist living in LR than NWA (as I should) but this isn't a thread about elitism, at least not for me.  BTW, I have a 70" TV.

   

I'm a conceited and arrogant cock-sucker because I wouldn't have a problem with our games being played ON FUCKING CAMPUS!  Now that's the stupidest fucking thing in this thread...

There's nothing magical about it being made up, one game would be a cupcake and roughly 15,000 more people would attend it in Fayetteville than in LR....the other game would be an SEC game and roughly 20,000 more people would attend it.  You may not like it but Jeff Long is not going to give two shits if you and your five Tush Hog buddies stop contributing.  Demand is going to keep going up for a perrenial top 10 program, if people like you drop out, there will be others who haven't been contributing that will decide that they want to now.  Nothing personal...simply supply and demand.

of going up to Fayetteville to see us kick the shit out of a non-conference opponent 4-5 times out of 8 every year.

At least try to stick to facts if you're going to resort to hyperbole. Last time I checked, we don't have 5 home non-conference games. This coming season, for example, we'll have two cupcakes, a mid major (Tulsa) and a BCS conf opponent (Rutgers).

Let me ask you a serious question, you're a Notre Dame grad living in Indianapolis, are you going to get your panties in a wad if Notre Dame plays all of its games in South Bend and doesn't throw ND grads that live closer to Indy a bone by having a game at Lucas Oil Field?

I've lived in LR as well...you may feel like more of an elitist living down, but I'm not sure why and I'm pretty sure you shouldn't.

I've actually got a 120' projection setup that's only sold to NWA cock suckers.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 10, 2012, 03:28:34 PM
I'm not sure Notre Dame is the best example considering that they're playing home games at:
Chicago 2012
Dublin, Ireland 2012
Dallas 2013
New York 2014,2015,2016


They're playing @Navy to kick off the year in fricking Dublin, Ireland.
Corrected. It's a home game too. They have 8 home games this year. Two off campus.
Don't think they'll have any non-official visits on that opening game vs Navy.

They're Notre Dame and they can do these things.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Biff Malibu on February 10, 2012, 03:39:28 PM
I'm not sure Notre Dame is the best example considering that they're playing home games at:
Chicago 2012
Dublin, Ireland 2012
Dallas 2013
New York 2014,2015,2016


They're playing @Navy to kick off the year in fricking Dublin, Ireland.
Corrected. It's a home game too. They have 8 home games this year. Two off campus.
Don't think they'll have any non-official visits on that opening game vs Navy.

They're Notre Dame and they can do these things.

None of those places are LR and none are in a run down, out of date stadium.  I'm not going to look but I am also assuming that those games are marquee games, not La Monroe.

Agreed though, ND isn't the best example...though the Alabama one I used earlier is.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: bakervscarrr on February 10, 2012, 03:51:37 PM
None of those places are LR and none are in a run down, out of date stadium.  I'm not going to look but I am also assuming that those games are marquee games, not La Monroe.

Agreed though, ND isn't the best example...though the Alabama one I used earlier is.

Alabama isn't a good example.  Tuscaloosa is 60 miles from Birmigham, and it's on a major interstate and has been for decades. Having games at Legion was about nothing but convenience for Birminghamians.  While there is certainly some of that from the LR crowd, that's not the compelling argument for Little Rock games to me.  I live in the metro and I prefer games in Fayetteville.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Biff Malibu on February 10, 2012, 04:03:14 PM
Alabama isn't a good example.  Tuscaloosa is 60 miles from Birmigham, and it's on a major interstate and has been for decades. Having games at Legion was about nothing but convenience for Birminghamians.  While there is certainly some of that from the LR crowd, that's not the compelling argument for Little Rock games to me.  I live in the metro and I prefer games in Fayetteville.

I think currently, having games in LR is mainly about the same thing, conveinence.  It used to be about exposure in the central part of the state, recruiting and the fact that it took 5+ hours to get to Fayetteville.  TV and new highways have made that argument irrelevant. 

Not to mention how many players we used to have to get from the state back when recruiting was local and regional.  I think this latest class shows just how much that has changed.  Four kids from the state and none from Central Arkansas.

Bottomline, we're going to get exposure in central, south, east Arkansas regardless of whether we have games in LR.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: bakervscarrr on February 10, 2012, 04:21:03 PM
I think currently, having games in LR is mainly about the same thing, conveinence.  It used to be about exposure in the central part of the state, recruiting and the fact that it took 5+ hours to get to Fayetteville.  TV and new highways have made that argument irrelevant. 

Not to mention how many players we used to have to get from the state back when recruiting was local and regional.  I think this latest class shows just how much that has changed.  Four kids from the state and none from Central Arkansas.

Bottomline, we're going to get exposure in central, south, east Arkansas regardless of whether we have games in LR.

You're always going to get exposure.  We just might not maintain a death grip on every town within the borders, particularly those who aren't beholden to Arkansas media. Towns who get newscasts originating from outside the state.

But when we're adding thousands of kids every year from Texas and south Arkansas is leaking residents like a sieve, the dirty truth is that the support of those the UA stands to lose is worth less than what they stand to gain by moving the games. People who want to move the games don't want to say it, and those of us who don't want games moved don't want to admit it, but that's the rub.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 10, 2012, 04:43:43 PM
None of those places are LR and none are in a run down, out of date stadium.  I'm not going to look but I am also assuming that those games are marquee games, not La Monroe.

Agreed though, ND isn't the best example...though the Alabama one I used earlier is.
Alabama has home games at
2012 - Dallas
2013 - Atlanta
2014 - Atlanta


Having one home game off campus is not a huge setback.
Yes, these are higher profile games and blah, blah, blah.

On years where we have 8 home games, it's no big deal and we can still do a LR game and a higher profile Dallas type game.

Having 6 on-campus home games where we can do officials is not hindering the program.



Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 10, 2012, 04:45:37 PM
You're always going to get exposure.  We just might not maintain a death grip on every town within the borders, particularly those who aren't beholden to Arkansas media. Towns who get newscasts originating from outside the state.

But when we're adding thousands of kids every year from Texas and south Arkansas is leaking residents like a sieve, the dirty truth is that the support of those the UA stands to lose is worth less than what they stand to gain by moving the games. People who want to move the games don't want to say it, and those of us who don't want games moved don't want to admit it, but that's the rub.

Yeah I agree.

I'm just more in the camp of letting it work itself out with the one game deal for a while.
Leak it out.

Then at that point, it probably won't fricking matter.


If the demand for such games in Little Rock slowly erodes, then there's no problem.
If you ignore the demand and rip it away, issues will be created.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Aporkalypse_Now on February 10, 2012, 05:50:43 PM
Alabama has home games at
2012 - Dallas
2013 - Atlanta
2014 - Atlanta


Having one home game off campus is not a huge setback.
Yes, these are higher profile games and blah, blah, blah.

On years where we have 8 home games, it's no big deal and we can still do a LR game and a higher profile Dallas type game.

Having 6 on-campus home games where we can do officials is not hindering the program.

Home games or neutral site games?

The one in DFW is sure as hell not a home game.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: hogsrunwild on February 10, 2012, 07:12:23 PM
Alabama has home games at
2012 - Dallas
2013 - Atlanta
2014 - Atlanta


Having one home game off campus is not a huge setback.
Yes, these are higher profile games and blah, blah, blah.

On years where we have 8 home games, it's no big deal and we can still do a LR game and a higher profile Dallas type game.

Having 6 on-campus home games where we can do officials is not hindering the program.

Are they losing money on those games?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 10, 2012, 07:36:17 PM
I am ok with one game per year at WMS, and I'm ok with that being an SEC game every other year.  (but never LSU)

I also don't have a problem scheduling stAte now and then, but I wouldn't want it to be an every year thing, simply because there are apparently a lot of retarded people in this state who might mistake it for a "rivalry" game.  Those kids would play their best, and it might make for a decent warm-up early season game most years. 

I'd like that game to be in Fayetteville, mainly because it would be a hard sell-out every time, even if it took 10k Howl-tards to do it.  And the HAS (Howlin And aMm) would probably play us for next to nothing.  Starkville, if they'd play in Fayetteville for free, and sell more hotdogs, we might come out making an extra $1million per season just by playing their stupid asses.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Hogwildpigcrazy on February 10, 2012, 08:07:59 PM
Note to hogsrunwild.

Until you change your avatar, I will never know what the fuck you posted.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: BASS on February 10, 2012, 10:14:28 PM
1. nobody at the university of arkansas gives a flying fuck what anyone on this board thinks unless you have a family member working for the university, and then only one person at the uofa gives a flying fuck and the other 25,000 people on campus don't.

2. the athletic department doesn't give two shits about your preferences of where games are played. 

3. the football team doesn't give two shits about your preferences of where games are played.

4. bmfp doesn't give two shits about your preferences of where games are played.

5. the uofa started playing games in wms after the stadium was built in the late 40's because:
     a. it was 20,000 seats larger than razorback stadium
     b. the roads to fayetteville sucked donkey dick
     c. there weren't enough people in nwa to fill up razorback stadium
     d. the uofa made a shitload more money for each home game they played in wms

6. none of the 4 reasons the uofa started playing in wms exist anymore.

7. the tradition of playing in wms has its roots based on making the most money for the program.  for tradition's sake they better move all of the games pronto, we don't want to miss out on any tradition.

8. no one in the athletic department gives two shits about little rock's hotel/restaurant/bar income from the razorback games.  if its so damn important, the city can find other events to cater to that income.

9. arkansas puts out a whopping 4 or 5 sec caliber athletes per year.  if we lose out on one because his mommy and daddy can take a shorter trip to oxfart, ruston, monroe, or memphrica, nobody is going to care and the football program will survive.  if we lose out on all of them (which isn't going to happen), we'll replace them with kids from another state.

10. if you are whining about games being moved from little rock because you don't want to have to drive 3 hours to watch the games live and in person, quit being a pussy.

11. if you are being a pussy about driving 3 hours for games because you have to shell out an extra $100 in gas and $100 for a hotel room, then keep your ass at home and watch on tv like a half a million other people in this state for every home game, someone else will buy your ticket, in case you didn't know there are about 600,000 people in nwa now.  tennessee fans in memphrica that drive 10 hours to knoxville for games and never complain about jack shit are putting all you moufbreathing pussies to shame.

12. if you will truly stop giving money to the uofa or stop being a fan because the uofa isn't catering to your need to be a pussy, then get the fuck out, razorback fans don't need you on the roll call.  go be an a state fan and hope and pray that before you die that with all of the money you give them they will finally graduate out of the sun belt.  or give all of your money to ualr in hopes that they start an intramural league.

13. expanding wms to 80,000 seating capacity will cost upwards of $100m or more, hell they spent $20m on a fucking press box.  if the wms commission and city of little rock make an extra $1m per game because of the expansion, the stadium will need to be renovated again or bulldozed before the expansion pays for itself.  if that extra revenue is going to the city of lr and wms commission, what is the monetary benefit to the uofa to keep playing there after the expansion?

14. the current athletic department and university administration are simply biding their time until the wms contract is up in 2016.  there will not be a renewal.  for an explanation as to why, re-read #'s 1 through 12.

15. the wms contract "extension" signed by jeff long right after he was hired was a facade.  jeff long got on campus and realized the athletic department couldn't afford to play 3 games in wms in any one season (existing contract was through 2014 and stated that in 2 of the years 3 games had to be played in wms) because the department needed that extra $1.5m in those seasons.  his solution was to keep playing the 2 game format and promise them an extra 2 years, a total of 2 additional games in wms through 2016 vs the original contract through 2014.  it had nothing to do with any other justification wms supporters want to believe about jeff long's and the uofa's commitment to central arkansas.

16. i was born and raised in saline county and lived there until i went to college at the uofa.  my first games were in wms.  i was at the best game ever hosted in that stadium, the shootout with houston in '89.  i am not an nwa elitist and don't get or give a fuck about the whole central arkansas vs nwa pissing contest among all you ra-tards.

17. i think playing games away from your campus is fucking stupid.  if there is no benefit to the university to do so, like more money from ticket sales, it is beyond fucking stupid.  playing games away from your campus in a smaller piece of shit rodeo arena on steroids while losing $1.5-$2m per game in revenue, losing the ability to host recruits for a home game per year, and being the laughing stock of the college football world in front of a national tv audience once a year for playing in said piece of shit rodeo arena on steriods approaches levels of stupidity that god never imagined possible of an organism even when he created the single cell bacteria to decompose shit.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: KSHogg on February 10, 2012, 10:33:35 PM
 :thumbup:


Where can I find one of  those beer cozies?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: BASS on February 10, 2012, 10:43:51 PM
:thumbup:


Where can I find one of  those beer cozies?

you don't have one?  hell, stop on by next time your in nwa and i'll let you use mine.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: TC on February 11, 2012, 12:21:50 AM

bla bla bla

5. the uofa started playing games in wms after the stadium was built in the late 40's because:
     a. it was 20,000 seats larger than razorback stadium
     b. the roads to fayetteville sucked donkey dick
     c. there weren't enough people in nwa to fill up razorback stadium
     d. the uofa made a shitload more money for each home game they played in wms

6. none of the 4 reasons the uofa started playing in wms exist anymore.

7. the tradition of playing in wms has its roots based on making the most money for the program.  for tradition's sake they better move all of the games pronto, we don't want to miss out on any tradition.

bla bla bla


That whole fucking diatribe is the rub for me...Giving the big middle finger to LR/WMS and wanting all games moved to campus, when you clearly spelled out that LR, and the Central Ar fanbase, Quigley/WMS, is what BUILT & sustained the fucking program in the first place.  Sure, the program would continue to flourish if all games were moved, but doing so is like saying, "Thanks a lot for helping us out back then and over all the years LR, but we big time now, so GFY."   

Leave 1 game in LR, and move LSU.  Not compromising on that doesnt make me a pussy, it makes you a little bitch.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HoneyBakedPiglet on February 11, 2012, 01:02:49 AM
Just move the damned games for the money and recruiting advantages and 20 years from now no one is going to give a shit games were ever played in WMS.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=full

It’s one of the great assumptions underlying modern democracy that an informed citizenry is preferable to an uninformed one. “Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government,” Thomas Jefferson wrote in 1789. This notion, carried down through the years, underlies everything from humble political pamphlets to presidential debates to the very notion of a free press. Mankind may be crooked timber, as Kant put it, uniquely susceptible to ignorance and misinformation, but it’s an article of faith that knowledge is the best remedy. If people are furnished with the facts, they will be clearer thinkers and better citizens. If they are ignorant, facts will enlighten them. If they are mistaken, facts will set them straight.

In the end, truth will out. Won’t it?

Maybe not. Recently, a few political scientists have begun to discover a human tendency deeply discouraging to anyone with faith in the power of information. It’s this: Facts don’t necessarily have the power to change our minds. In fact, quite the opposite. In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger.

This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters — the people making decisions about how the country runs — aren’t blank slates. They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their minds. The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct information, such people react very, very differently than the merely uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct information, they can entrench themselves even deeper.

“The general idea is that it’s absolutely threatening to admit you’re wrong,” says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher on the Michigan study. The phenomenon — known as “backfire” — is “a natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.”

These findings open a long-running argument about the political ignorance of American citizens to broader questions about the interplay between the nature of human intelligence and our democratic ideals. Most of us like to believe that our opinions have been formed over time by careful, rational consideration of facts and ideas, and that the decisions based on those opinions, therefore, have the ring of soundness and intelligence. In reality, we often base our opinions on our beliefs, which can have an uneasy relationship with facts. And rather than facts driving beliefs, our beliefs can dictate the facts we chose to accept. They can cause us to twist facts so they fit better with our preconceived notions. Worst of all, they can lead us to uncritically accept bad information just because it reinforces our beliefs. This reinforcement makes us more confident we’re right, and even less likely to listen to any new information. And then we vote.

This effect is only heightened by the information glut, which offers — alongside an unprecedented amount of good information — endless rumors, misinformation, and questionable variations on the truth. In other words, it’s never been easier for people to be wrong, and at the same time feel more certain that they’re right.

“Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be,” read a recent Onion headline. Like the best satire, this nasty little gem elicits a laugh, which is then promptly muffled by the queasy feeling of recognition. The last five decades of political science have definitively established that most modern-day Americans lack even a basic understanding of how their country works. In 1996, Princeton University’s Larry M. Bartels argued, “the political ignorance of the American voter is one of the best documented data in political science.”

On its own, this might not be a problem: People ignorant of the facts could simply choose not to vote. But instead, it appears that misinformed people often have some of the strongest political opinions. A striking recent example was a study done in the year 2000, led by James Kuklinski of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. He led an influential experiment in which more than 1,000 Illinois residents were asked questions about welfare — the percentage of the federal budget spent on welfare, the number of people enrolled in the program, the percentage of enrollees who are black, and the average payout. More than half indicated that they were confident that their answers were correct — but in fact only 3 percent of the people got more than half of the questions right. Perhaps more disturbingly, the ones who were the most confident they were right were by and large the ones who knew the least about the topic. (Most of these participants expressed views that suggested a strong antiwelfare bias.)

Studies by other researchers have observed similar phenomena when addressing education, health care reform, immigration, affirmative action, gun control, and other issues that tend to attract strong partisan opinion. Kuklinski calls this sort of response the “I know I’m right” syndrome, and considers it a “potentially formidable problem” in a democratic system. “It implies not only that most people will resist correcting their factual beliefs,” he wrote, “but also that the very people who most need to correct them will be least likely to do so.”

What’s going on? How can we have things so wrong, and be so sure that we’re right? Part of the answer lies in the way our brains are wired. Generally, people tend to seek consistency. There is a substantial body of psychological research showing that people tend to interpret information with an eye toward reinforcing their preexisting views. If we believe something about the world, we are more likely to passively accept as truth any information that confirms our beliefs, and actively dismiss information that doesn’t. This is known as “motivated reasoning.” Whether or not the consistent information is accurate, we might accept it as fact, as confirmation of our beliefs. This makes us more confident in said beliefs, and even less likely to entertain facts that contradict them.

New research, published in the journal Political Behavior last month, suggests that once those facts — or “facts” — are internalized, they are very difficult to budge. In 2005, amid the strident calls for better media fact-checking in the wake of the Iraq war, Michigan’s Nyhan and a colleague devised an experiment in which participants were given mock news stories, each of which contained a provably false, though nonetheless widespread, claim made by a political figure: that there were WMDs found in Iraq (there weren’t), that the Bush tax cuts increased government revenues (revenues actually fell), and that the Bush administration imposed a total ban on stem cell research (only certain federal funding was restricted). Nyhan inserted a clear, direct correction after each piece of misinformation, and then measured the study participants to see if the correction took.

For the most part, it didn’t. The participants who self-identified as conservative believed the misinformation on WMD and taxes even more strongly after being given the correction. With those two issues, the more strongly the participant cared about the topic — a factor known as salience — the stronger the backfire. The effect was slightly different on self-identified liberals: When they read corrected stories about stem cells, the corrections didn’t backfire, but the readers did still ignore the inconvenient fact that the Bush administration’s restrictions weren’t total.

It’s unclear what is driving the behavior — it could range from simple defensiveness, to people working harder to defend their initial beliefs — but as Nyhan dryly put it, “It’s hard to be optimistic about the effectiveness of fact-checking.”

It would be reassuring to think that political scientists and psychologists have come up with a way to counter this problem, but that would be getting ahead of ourselves. The persistence of political misperceptions remains a young field of inquiry. “It’s very much up in the air,” says Nyhan.

But researchers are working on it. One avenue may involve self-esteem. Nyhan worked on one study in which he showed that people who were given a self-affirmation exercise were more likely to consider new information than people who had not. In other words, if you feel good about yourself, you’ll listen — and if you feel insecure or threatened, you won’t. This would also explain why demagogues benefit from keeping people agitated. The more threatened people feel, the less likely they are to listen to dissenting opinions, and the more easily controlled they are.

There are also some cases where directness works. Kuklinski’s welfare study suggested that people will actually update their beliefs if you hit them “between the eyes” with bluntly presented, objective facts that contradict their preconceived ideas. He asked one group of participants what percentage of its budget they believed the federal government spent on welfare, and what percentage they believed the government should spend. Another group was given the same questions, but the second group was immediately told the correct percentage the government spends on welfare (1 percent). They were then asked, with that in mind, what the government should spend. Regardless of how wrong they had been before receiving the information, the second group indeed adjusted their answer to reflect the correct fact.

Kuklinski’s study, however, involved people getting information directly from researchers in a highly interactive way. When Nyhan attempted to deliver the correction in a more real-world fashion, via a news article, it backfired. Even if people do accept the new information, it might not stick over the long term, or it may just have no effect on their opinions. In 2007 John Sides of George Washington University and Jack Citrin of the University of California at Berkeley studied whether providing misled people with correct information about the proportion of immigrants in the US population would affect their views on immigration. It did not.

And if you harbor the notion — popular on both sides of the aisle — that the solution is more education and a higher level of political sophistication in voters overall, well, that’s a start, but not the solution. A 2006 study by Charles Taber and Milton Lodge at Stony Brook University showed that politically sophisticated thinkers were even less open to new information than less sophisticated types. These people may be factually right about 90 percent of things, but their confidence makes it nearly impossible to correct the 10 percent on which they’re totally wrong. Taber and Lodge found this alarming, because engaged, sophisticated thinkers are “the very folks on whom democratic theory relies most heavily.”

In an ideal world, citizens would be able to maintain constant vigilance, monitoring both the information they receive and the way their brains are processing it. But keeping atop the news takes time and effort. And relentless self-questioning, as centuries of philosophers have shown, can be exhausting. Our brains are designed to create cognitive shortcuts — inference, intuition, and so forth — to avoid precisely that sort of discomfort while coping with the rush of information we receive on a daily basis. Without those shortcuts, few things would ever get done. Unfortunately, with them, we’re easily suckered by political falsehoods.

Nyhan ultimately recommends a supply-side approach. Instead of focusing on citizens and consumers of misinformation, he suggests looking at the sources. If you increase the “reputational costs” of peddling bad info, he suggests, you might discourage people from doing it so often. “So if you go on ‘Meet the Press’ and you get hammered for saying something misleading,” he says, “you’d think twice before you go and do it again.”

Unfortunately, this shame-based solution may be as implausible as it is sensible. Fast-talking political pundits have ascended to the realm of highly lucrative popular entertainment, while professional fact-checking operations languish in the dungeons of wonkery. Getting a politician or pundit to argue straight-faced that George W. Bush ordered 9/11, or that Barack Obama is the culmination of a five-decade plot by the government of Kenya to destroy the United States — that’s easy. Getting him to register shame? That isn’t.

Joe Keohane is a writer in New York.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: BASS on February 11, 2012, 09:47:33 AM
Just move the damned games for the money and recruiting advantages and 20 years from now no one is going to give a shit games were ever played in WMS.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=full


very good article that basically says just about everyone is a fucking idiot, which i firmly believe.  and your dead on about moving the games and in 20 years no one will care.  this article also applies to anyone with an opinion on recruiting rankings and is a very good description of the level of thinking that goes on in the media.  houston nutt is a good coach b/c espn says so.  bmfp is a terrible person because espn says so.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: BASS on February 11, 2012, 10:05:45 AM
That whole fucking diatribe is the rub for me...Giving the big middle finger to LR/WMS and wanting all games moved to campus, when you clearly spelled out that LR, and the Central Ar fanbase, Quigley/WMS, is what BUILT & sustained the fucking program in the first place.  Sure, the program would continue to flourish if all games were moved, but doing so is like saying, "Thanks a lot for helping us out back then and over all the years LR, but we big time now, so GFY."   

Leave 1 game in LR, and move LSU.  Not compromising on that doesnt make me a pussy, it makes you a little bitch.

playing games in your home stadium does not give the finger to anyone, nor tell anyone to go fuck yourself.  central arkansas did not do the university a favor by allowing the football team to play in wms.  central arkansas and the fans benefitted greatly from the uofa playing in wms - otherwise they wouldn't be bitching about moving the games.  in turn the uofa benefitted greatly from the increased revenue for a few decades; both sides got something they wanted and both sides benefitted from it.  ceasing to continue this arrangement because it no longer benefits one party the way it used to is not what you suggest it is: "Sure, the program would continue to flourish if all games were moved, but doing so is like saying, 'Thanks a lot for helping us out back then and over all the years LR, but we big time now, so GFY.'".  your suggesting that little rock did the uofa a favor and now the uofa owes something to little rock when its arguable that little rock and all of central arkansas reaped much more reward from the games being played in little rock than the uofa did by playing there.

yes, playing in LR helped the program a lot in the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's.  guess what? the most recent decade that it benefitted the program ended 20+ years ago.  it isn't helping the program anymore.  wanting the program to do what is not the best for the program in order to suit your personal preferences and keep you from being butthurt makes you a little bitch and slightly retarded.  your unwillingness to compromise does not make me a little bitch - this type of irrational thinking also suggest retardation.  unfortunately for you, there is no cure or help for retardation.

a wise man once said "any decision made with any amount of emotion involved is the wrong one".  pull your personal emotions out of it and put yourself in the position of jeff long, the ceo of a $75m a year business, and look at the facts that make the most sense for the business to grow and prosper.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Aporkalypse_Now on February 11, 2012, 10:27:57 AM

yes, playing in LR helped the program a lot in the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's.  guess what? the most recent decade that it benefitted the program ended 20+ years ago.  it isn't helping the program anymore.  wanting the program to do what is not the best for the program in order to suit your personal preferences and keep you from being butthurt makes you a little bitch and slightly retarded.  your unwillingness to compromise does not make me a little bitch - this type of irrational thinking also suggest retardation.  unfortunately for you, there is no cure or help for retardation.


Playing in Little Rock helped from the 1920s when the games were at Quigley until 2001 IMO.  Once the new stadium was built and more fans could attend games, and far more revenue could be generated due to suites and club seats, it started hurting UA to play there.

Before 2001 attendance was usually a good bit better in LR than NWA.  Around that time I-540 opened and we finally got some hotels in NWA to prevent people from what used to be a treacherous 4 hour drive through the mountains at night, so now people could stay the night or drive safely home.

I don't think that if games had been moved in the 80s or 90s the outcome would've been good.  Now I'm confident it's in the university's best interests.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: TC on February 11, 2012, 10:31:08 AM

a wise man once said "any decision made with any amount of emotion involved is the wrong one".  pull your personal emotions out of it and put yourself in the position of jeff long, the ceo of a $75m a year business, and look at the facts that make the most sense for the business to grow and prosper.

You're right because one game is going to absolutely break the bank for the University.   ::) 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Humphrey BOARgart on February 11, 2012, 10:33:25 AM
Playing in Little Rock helped from the 1920s when the games were at Quigley until 2001 IMO.  Once the new stadium was built and more fans could attend games, and far more revenue could be generated due to suites and club seats, it started hurting UA to play there.

Before 2001 attendance was usually a good bit better in LR than NWA.  Around that time I-540 opened and we finally got some hotels in NWA to prevent people from what used to be a treacherous 4 hour drive through the mountains at night, so now people could stay the night or drive safely home.

I don't think that if games had been moved in the 80s or 90s the outcome would've been good.  Now I'm confident it's in the university's best interests.


This right here.

XNA and I540 were game changers. I remember it taking 2-2 1/2 hours to get to Fayetteville from Alma on game days. 71 was bumper to bumper going about 20 mph the whole way.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Spongebob on February 11, 2012, 10:53:33 AM

XNA and I540 were game changers. I remember it taking 2-2 1/2 hours to get to Fayetteville from Alma on game days. 71 was bumper to bumper going about 20 mph the whole way.

But how was the traffic at the Alma Sonic?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Phat_Hawg on February 11, 2012, 11:50:38 AM
You're right because one game is going to absolutely break the bank for the University.   ::)

Profitable and well-run corporations are not in the habit of throwing away 1 to 2 million dollars just because it won't break the bank.  I can toss a $20 bill out the window of my car every morning on the way to work and it won't bankrupt me but it would still be stupid as hell. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Mike Slive on February 11, 2012, 12:03:42 PM
It's already starting. UALR is on ESPN 2 right now.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: bakervscarrr on February 11, 2012, 12:09:23 PM
Profitable and well-run corporations are not in the habit of throwing away 1 to 2 million dollars just because it won't break the bank. 

Uh. You serious, Clark?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: TC on February 11, 2012, 12:27:35 PM
Profitable and well-run corporations are not in the habit of throwing away 1 to 2 million dollars just because it won't break the bank.  I can toss a $20 bill out the window of my car every morning on the way to work and it won't bankrupt me but it would still be stupid as hell.

Bullshit.  They do it all the time.

Again you guys are assuming that those are the accurate numbers.  That's a big assumption, even being thrown around in this thread as 'FACTS'.  As it's been pointed out, not a damned one of us knows the facts as they pertain to the financials concerning the 'cost' of a game in LR.  How would you feel if it came out it only cost the university 200k/game?

And 'throwing away'?  That's pretty short sided financial management and assumes there is ZERO return on that money.  You guys like to use the "big corporation" model as an example, but when someone points out that the shareholders should reap some dividends you fly off the handle.
 

   
 

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: hogsrunwild on February 11, 2012, 12:35:15 PM
Just jack of up the ticket prices in LR until those games net as much revenue as in NWA.  The savages can't complain because they get their games and the revenue is the same.  If they refuse to buy said tickets, fuck em and move all games to NWA.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Snorts on February 11, 2012, 01:44:59 PM
Just jack of up the ticket prices in LR until those games net as much revenue as in NWA.  The savages can't complain because they get their games and the revenue is the same.  If they refuse to buy said tickets, fuck em and move all games to NWA.

 :thumbup:
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: uagrad89 on February 11, 2012, 02:37:09 PM
Just jack of up the ticket prices in LR until those games net as much revenue as in NWA.  The savages can't complain because they get their games and the revenue is the same.  If they refuse to buy said tickets, frick em and move all games to NWA.

Exactly. If they want to have a game, then make it so it doesn't take money from the university they supposedly love. Every other team in the country realized long ago the idiocy of playing home games in an away stadium. I think a Top 10 team in the country can make the same intelligent decision.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Phat_Hawg on February 11, 2012, 05:43:37 PM
Bullshit.  They do it all the time.
   
 

Really?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: hogsrunwild on February 11, 2012, 05:50:13 PM
Really?

I'm thinking that he doesn't have much experience in large corporations.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Southern Yeoman on February 11, 2012, 06:11:09 PM
Playing in Little Rock helped from the 1920s when the games were at Quigley until 2001 IMO.  Once the new stadium was built and more fans could attend games, and far more revenue could be generated due to suites and club seats, it started hurting UA to play there.

Before 2001 attendance was usually a good bit better in LR than NWA.  Around that time I-540 opened and we finally got some hotels in NWA to prevent people from what used to be a treacherous 4 hour drive through the mountains at night, so now people could stay the night or drive safely home.I don't think that if games had been moved in the 80s or 90s the outcome would've been good.  Now I'm confident it's in the university's best interests.
While, of course, contributing to Washington County's finest revenuers at the usual speed traps.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: DirkPiggler on February 11, 2012, 06:20:27 PM
This thread is giving me a headache, and I damn sure haven't read every single post, so I'll slam my dick in a screen door if these points have already been made.

1.  The "you can't host recruits for official visits in LR" line is a red herring.  No one brings in recruits for official visits for every single game.  Most of the schools we're recruiting against don't have any official visits during the season.  One game (not two) in LR isn't going to make a difference with respect to recruiting.  We can have unofficial visitors (where we buy the tickets) to one off-campus game per season per SEC rules.  If we play one game in LR every season there is no disadvantage in terms of recruiting. 

2.  To those saying "we should play all the games in Fayetteville because that's where the campus is located", shut the fuck up, please.  That is the same argument I always heard while I was in school from the people who wouldn't walk across Stadium Drive to see a game unless it was homecoming or some other social event, and who didn't know Quinn Grovey from Dr. Quinn the Medicine Woman.  The students are great right now, and I think we should give them as many seats as they can fill if they keep it up.  Unfortunately, the first time we go 7-5 we'll be looking at a half-empty student section.  God forbid if we do worse than that you'll be able to shoot a case full of 12 gauge bird shot into the student seating with nary a pellet hitting a living breathing human.  This isn't opinion - it's fact that has been proven many times over in both football and basketball. 

And for the record I'm in favor of all SEC games being on the hill, and no more than one non-conference game being played in LR, even though I live ten minutes from War Memorial.  But there are plenty of legitimate arguments to be made in favor of moving the games without resorting to Wally Hall logic. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on February 11, 2012, 07:08:20 PM
This thread is giving me a headache, and I damn sure haven't read every single post, so I'll slam my dick in a screen door if these points have already been made.

1.  The "you can't host recruits for official visits in LR" line is a red herring.  No one brings in recruits for official visits for every single game.  Most of the schools we're recruiting against don't have any official visits during the season.  One game (not two) in LR isn't going to make a difference with respect to recruiting.  We can have unofficial visitors (where we buy the tickets) to one off-campus game per season per SEC rules.  If we play one game in LR every season there is no disadvantage in terms of recruiting. 

2.  To those saying "we should play all the games in Fayetteville because that's where the campus is located", shut the frick up, please.  That is the same argument I always heard while I was in school from the people who wouldn't walk across Stadium Drive to see a game unless it was homecoming or some other social event, and who didn't know Quinn Grovey from Dr. Quinn the Medicine Woman.  The students are great right now, and I think we should give them as many seats as they can fill if they keep it up.  Unfortunately, the first time we go 7-5 we'll be looking at a half-empty student section.  God forbid if we do worse than that you'll be able to shoot a case full of 12 gauge bird shot into the student seating with nary a pellet hitting a living breathing human.  This isn't opinion - it's fact that has been proven many times over in both football and basketball. 

And for the record I'm in favor of all SEC games being on the hill, and no more than one non-conference game being played in LR, even though I live ten minutes from War Memorial.  But there are plenty of legitimate arguments to be made in favor of moving the games without resorting to Wally Hall logic.
Watch it Dirk. I stated I too live 10 minutes from WMS and was told, when I lobbied for 1 non-con game there, that it was only due to be convienent for me. The points you make are solid ones.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: bakervscarrr on February 11, 2012, 11:04:30 PM
I'm thinking that he doesn't have much experience in large corporations.

I don't want any part of the application to the GSD y'all are arguing, but don't be a tool and make this argument.

Well-run is an subjective measure, but profitable is as objective as can be, and there are TONS of insanely profitable corporations that spend ungodly amounts on frivolity. Arguing otherwise is asinine.

Ask any waiter. Ask anybody in ANY service industry. A corporate card is like striking gold.

I had a cousin that used to work as a pharma rep. She worked on the initial rollout of a new drug about 10 years ago. The training seminar was in Vegas. 10,000 reps. She said her company spent $5000 PER rep over the course of the week. That's $50 million. Ten years ago.

Successful corporations don't blow money? Come the fuck on.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: hogsrunwild on February 11, 2012, 11:23:06 PM
I don't want any part of the application to the GSD y'all are arguing, but don't be a tool and make this argument.

Well-run is an subjective measure, but profitable is as objective as can be, and there are TONS of insanely profitable corporations that spend ungodly amounts on frivolity. Arguing otherwise is asinine.

Ask any waiter. Ask anybody in ANY service industry. A corporate card is like striking gold.

I had a cousin that used to work as a pharma rep. She worked on the initial rollout of a new drug about 10 years ago. The training seminar was in Vegas. 10,000 reps. She said her company spent $5000 PER rep over the course of the week. That's $50 million. Ten years ago.

Successful corporations don't blow money? Come the fuck on.

Spending money on employees so they work harder and so you attract the most talented employees, to make more money for the company.
Spending money on players so they go out and play better and to attract the most talented recruits, to making the U more money.

Much of that spending is to attract and retain your most talented workers.  That is how large corporations work.  Retaining a talented person or attracting a new talent is worth millions to the company.  An effective pharma rep can be gold.  Keeping them is gold. 


Keeping games in a place that limits your potential profit is akin to keeping your manufacturing in a place that limits your ability to make profit.  You know that whole outsourcing thing?  I might not like it, but most companies do whatever they can to maximize profit and keeping your operations in a place that limits you isn't something they normally do.

That is all contingent on the U making less money by playing in LR.  If they don't make less money, then it is all moot.  If they DO make less money playing in LR, then they need to fix that.

I propose they up the prices in LR to even things out if they currently make less by playing there.  Simple economics.  Allow LR to keep their games, just make sure we don't LOSE money by playing there.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Phat_Hawg on February 12, 2012, 01:06:51 PM

1.  The "you can't host recruits for official visits in LR" line is a red herring.  No one brings in recruits for official visits for every single game.  Most of the schools we're recruiting against don't have any official visits during the season. 

WTF are you talking about?  This is 100% incorrect.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: BASS on February 12, 2012, 01:27:30 PM
You're right because one game is going to absolutely break the bank for the University.   ::)

giving up $1.5m a year to play one game in lr is a dumb business decision.  the executives I work for would go apeshit over $20,000 a year for an un-beneficial charity cause, much less $1.5m.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: BASS on February 12, 2012, 01:39:32 PM
Bullshit.  They do it all the time.

Again you guys are assuming that those are the accurate numbers.  That's a big assumption, even being thrown around in this thread as 'FACTS'.  As it's been pointed out, not a damned one of us knows the facts as they pertain to the financials concerning the 'cost' of a game in LR.  How would you feel if it came out it only cost the university 200k/game?

And 'throwing away'?  That's pretty short sided financial management and assumes there is ZERO return on that money.  You guys like to use the "big corporation" model as an example, but when someone points out that the shareholders should reap some dividends you fly off the handle.
 

   
 

fayetteville: 76,000 tickets x $55 = $4,180,000
little rock: 55,000 tickets x $55 = $3,025,000

granted they did raise the ticket price for lr games by $10, so the new math is lr 55,000 x $65 = $3,575,000

add in the fact that the uofa gets $0 from wms concessions vs majority % of razorback stadium concessions = unknown
if the uofa gets 55% and the average fan spends $5 per game, then 76,000 x $5 x 55% = $209,000.

add in the additional money the uofa gets from suites, club seats, chairbacks, chairback seating in the sez, parking revenue = unknown, but I'd bet a conservative estimate is well over $.5m per game. 

$605,000 ticket revenue + $209,000 concession revenue + $500,000+ suites, etc. and we're up to $1,309,000.  I don't think $1.5m to $2m per game difference is that far off of reality.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Phat_Hawg on February 12, 2012, 01:51:04 PM

$605,000 ticket revenue + $209,000 concession revenue + $500,000+ suites, etc. and we're up to $1,309,000.  I don't think $1.5m to $2m per game difference is that far off of reality.

Does that factor in the additional expenses involved in playing in Little Rock such as rental ($75,000 I think)?
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 12, 2012, 02:21:04 PM
WTF are you talking about?  This is 100% incorrect.

You are so confident, and so wrong.

Looking at Rivals, we only brought recruits in on official visits for one game, Auburn. And only 3 kids were on officials. Most coaches prefer to bring kids in after the season. They get to spend a shitload more time with them, the kids aren't exhausted from playing in a game late Friday night then either traveling late that night or super early the next morning, and the visit is more on the front of their mind as signing day approaches.

Most football games are used for unofficials... kids can get free tickets if they want to come to the game, but that's about it. We can have unofficial visitors to one LR game, so that point is moot. You could argue we lose a chance to have unofficial visitors for the second LR game, but that argument falls short as we give up unofficial visitors every time we schedule a home-and-home (rumored Rutgers deal) or a neutral site game (Dallas).

The recruiting visit thing had validity when the SEC banned all off-campus visits and we were playing 3 games/year in LR. Now that we are playing 2 and can have have visitors for 1 off-campus game, it really has little to no impact.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 12, 2012, 02:26:33 PM
fayetteville: 76,000 tickets x $55 = $4,180,000
little rock: 55,000 tickets x $55 = $3,025,000

granted they did raise the ticket price for lr games by $10, so the new math is lr 55,000 x $65 = $3,575,000

add in the fact that the uofa gets $0 from wms concessions vs majority % of razorback stadium concessions = unknown
if the uofa gets 55% and the average fan spends $5 per game, then 76,000 x $5 x 55% = $209,000.

add in the additional money the uofa gets from suites, club seats, chairbacks, chairback seating in the sez, parking revenue = unknown, but I'd bet a conservative estimate is well over $.5m per game. 

$605,000 ticket revenue + $209,000 concession revenue + $500,000+ suites, etc. and we're up to $1,309,000.  I don't think $1.5m to $2m per game difference is that far off of reality.

1) 10,000 student tickets are sold for a buck, so you don't get 76,000 x the ticket price in Fayetteville.
2) When is the last time we had 76,000 for a rent-a-win, which are the types of games even LR folks are wanting played in WMS? Never, that's when. We didn't even sell out the top ten matchup vs. USC this year. A more realistic estimate would be around 65,000, and I'd bet that might be generous for butts-in-the-seats for a game along the lines of New Mexico in November.
3) You're leaving out the entire second set of donations we receive from the RSVP program. For example, my in-laws only hold LR tickets, and they have to pay a donation just for the rights to those tickets.

In other words, your numbers make RRS look better and WMS look worse in every calculation. There is no doubt lower revenue generated from playing in WMS, but not as drastic as you make it appear.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: HoneyBakedPiglet on February 12, 2012, 03:03:23 PM

Quote
1) 10,000 student tickets are sold for a buck, so you don't get 76,000 x the ticket price in Fayetteville.

This implies there are zero students in LR. Not true so its a wash.

Quote
2) When is the last time we had 76,000 for a rent-a-win, which are the types of games even LR folks are wanting played in WMS? Never, that's when. We didn't even sell out the top ten matchup vs. USC this year. A more realistic estimate would be around 65,000, and I'd bet that might be generous for butts-in-the-seats for a game along the lines of New Mexico in November.

Which is still more than LR.

Quote
3) You're leaving out the entire second set of donations we receive from the RSVP program. For example, my in-laws only hold LR tickets, and they have to pay a donation just for the rights to those tickets.


Which will be made up by people donating to get tickets to RRS games when they're moved. It may not be your in-laws but it'll be someone.

Quote
In other words, your numbers make RRS look better and WMS look worse in every calculation. There is no doubt lower revenue generated from playing in WMS, but not as drastic as you make it appear.

If my boss saw that the company's bottom line could be improved by 6% ($1million per game, two games, total budget of ~$70million), and I told him we couldn't because there was too much loyalty to the vendor we use and they'd supported us throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s but had fallen off their usefulness since then, he'd tell me to go fuck myself because I was fired. Your confirmation bias wont let you accept any argument you don't agree with. Everyone is guilty of it to some degree but right now your sounding like a horse and buggy salesman trying to keep those damned automobiles out your city. Change happens and its not always for the worse. Get used to it.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 12, 2012, 03:42:24 PM
I'm going to intervene in this cripple fight to remind both of you that there are 132 luxury suites in Fayetteville, plus indoor and outdoor club.

After factoring in the annual rent on the box, the average luxury suite ticket is actually around $300 per game if my math is right.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: CJLR on February 12, 2012, 03:54:22 PM

Which will be made up by people donating to get tickets to RRS games when they're moved. It may not be your in-laws but it'll be someone.


Who?  Why aren't they donating now?  Why wait?  It's complete bullshit to say for a fact that there is a certain group of people just waiting to cover all the donation cash that may be lost as a result of moving all the games.  Hell, I remember reading about RSVP where some people thought it was bullshit that they had to give any donation money at all to get season tix.  But whatever.

Jeebus, the last three pages of this thread look like they were lifted straight fro
 Hogville.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ArkGuy on February 12, 2012, 04:20:30 PM
Has there been a recent expansion?  Because arkansasrazorbacks.com says DWRRS has a capacity of 72,000, not 76,000.  Announced crowds greater than that include "every beating heart," like visiting band, security and ushers, etc.  But that's true everywhere, including LR.

So, if you start with 72K and subtract 10K students, you include $62K paying full price.  In LR, most games it seems there are maybe a third of that in the student section.  Say 3,500.  So LR would be 53,500 minus 3,500 = 50K paying full freight.

So I think the "net net" would mean about a 12,000 seat difference.  At $55 per that's about a difference of $660,000 per game.

Now, I think the "$1 per game" Fayetteville tickets for students are now rolled in a $50 per year for all sports activity fee so, though the cost accountants might quibble about how much of that should be credited to football, but some of that half million dollars of student revenue per year would push that $660,000 per game up. 

Another wild card not mentioned how much, if any, premium seating revenue would increase if Fay all the games or even all but one.  Would someone already paying, e.g. $X,000 per year for their box or covered seats pay more per season if there were 7 or 8 games there instead of 5.5 or 6?  I don't know.  If yes, then that widens the gap.  However, if there is currently premium revenue from LR games (the fancy pressbox?), that might drop with the movement of one or both games.  So that would shrink the gap.

And I won't even bothr getting into predicted changes in donations if one or both games are moved.

Bottom line, Long knows what all the numbers are NOW.  Not even he knows the way attitudes might affect revenue in the FUTURE.  He probably thinks an incremental approach is the most painless and will get him where we need to be soon enough.  In fact, it might even be the smartest way to reshape attitudes.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 12, 2012, 04:36:54 PM
This implies there are zero students in LR. Not true so its a wash.


There are about 2,000 students in LR games, much less than the 10,000 in Fayetteville. It would only "be a wash" if there were 10,000 students in both places, you see. That's how the math works.

So the smaller number of students removes about $520,000 (8,000 tickets at $65 vs $1 in Fayetteville) of revenue hit from the LR games.

Quote
Which is still more than LR.

Yes. The point is that it's not as drastic as you make it out to be.
 

Quote
Which will be made up by people donating to get tickets to RRS games when they're moved. It may not be your in-laws but it'll be someone.

 I guess those people are going to materialize out of thin air? Believe it or not, the line about some people going to LR games and not going to Fayetteville games are true. Not everyone eats and breathes football like you and I do, unfortunately.

There is an old couple in LR that sit in front of me at the LR games. Had season tickets since the 70's. Love the Hogs, donate money, and even go to some of the games in Baton Rouge, and went to the Liberty Bowl. They've never had tickets to Fayetteville.

Believe it or not, you don't have to go to Fayetteville games to love and support the Hogs. There are is indeed a distinct group of people that only attend and donate games to LR. That should be accounted for when discussing revenue.

Quote
If my boss saw that the company's bottom line could be improved by 6% ($1million per game, two games, total budget of ~$70million), and I told him we couldn't because there was too much loyalty to the vendor we use and they'd supported us throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s but had fallen off their usefulness since then, he'd tell me to go frick myself because I was fired. Your confirmation bias wont let you accept any argument you don't agree with. Everyone is guilty of it to some degree but right now your sounding like a horse and buggy salesman trying to keep those damned automobiles out your city. Change happens and its not always for the worse. Get used to it.

This whole analogy is tired and wrong-headed, at best. If you want to use stupid analogies to the corporate world, then you'd be best off using an example of post-merger a company throwing the acquired company's home city a bone and leaving a headquarters in the region. It costs more on direct cost basis, but it avoids pissing off a large group of stakeholders and builds positive favor towards the company and its brand. That analogy is wrong for a whole host of regions, but it's a helluva lot closer than your stupid comparison.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 12, 2012, 04:41:34 PM
I'm going to intervene in this cripple fight to remind both of you that there are 132 luxury suites in Fayetteville, plus indoor and outdoor club.

After factoring in the annual rent on the box, the average luxury suite ticket is actually around $300 per game if my math is right.

Sure, if you divide total donation + ticket price by the number of games, but it doesn't work that way. If you added a LR game to Fayetteville you'd add the cost of the individual ticket times total ticketholders in the suites, unless they bumped donation levels up as well. They could easily bump donation levels and not increase the number of games, and account for a large chunk of that revenue anyway.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 12, 2012, 04:56:14 PM
Sure, if you divide total donation + ticket price by the number of games, but it doesn't work that way.
 

The boxes are on a lease agreement, just like if you rented a home.  Donation amounts are separate from that.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 12, 2012, 04:59:23 PM
 

The boxes are on a lease agreement, just like if you rented a home.

Right, but then you still purchase tickets by the game (unless they changed that last season).

So, you have your base donation, lease whatever....for the entire year. You then purchase tickets for however many games there are. So, extra games in Fayetteville would increase revenue from suiteholders in the form of more ticket sales, but unless they bumped lease/donation rates, it wouldn't be some huge windfall.

And, I'm not a suiteholder, but from talking to those that are, they don' typically vary the lease/donation rate based on the # of games. It's a fairly static number no matter how many games are in Fayetteville (didn't go down when we gave away a home game to Dallas, for example).
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 12, 2012, 05:03:26 PM
If there was ever a justification for raising the rent on suites, it would be having another game in Fayetteville.

Most people automatically break it down mentally to a per-game amount per suite when looking in to renting one.  Its human nature.

It impacts the value of the Chartwell's contract that the university has, too.  On game days, your average suite probably spends $400-$500 with Chartwell's.

Its another consideration when comparing per game revenue streams with WMS.  The suites definitely factor in financially in a big way.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 12, 2012, 05:05:12 PM
If there was ever a justification for raising the rent on suites, it would be having another game in Fayetteville.

Most people automatically break it down mentally to a per-game amount per suite when looking in to renting one.  Its human nature.

It impacts the value of the Chartwell's contract that the university has.  On game days, your average suite probably spends $400-$500 with Chartwell's.

Its another consideration when comparing per game revenue streams with WMS.  The suites definitely factor in financially in a big way.

Your Chartwell's number is way off, based on my experience. I know 3 people that have suites, they all self-cater.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 12, 2012, 05:06:47 PM
Your Chartwell's number is way off, based on my experience. I know 3 people that have suites, they all self-cater.

Most that I know of do a mix of self and Chartwell's, and its not way off at all.  Ours has had a Chartwell's bill north of $600 several times.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 12, 2012, 05:12:09 PM
Anyway, the point is the suites are leased for the season.  With more Fay games, you increase the value of the suites.  It would be stupid to go to 7 or 8 Fayetteville games and not bump up the total lease amount.  You're talking about a large suite that leases for around $5-6k per game, times however many of those there are.  $3-4k for the smaller ones. 

Plus concessions, minus all the people who have to be paid, such as ushers, etc, minus the light bill and water bill.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Southern Yeoman on February 12, 2012, 07:44:56 PM
Really?
Falsely.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Mike Slive on February 12, 2012, 07:48:15 PM
Falsely.

Shouldn't you be watching Smokey and the Bandit?  Seriously, GFY.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: bakervscarrr on February 12, 2012, 07:55:44 PM
Arguing the financials is pointless. Fayetteville wins out every time, by a margin that varies depending on how fast and loose you play with the numbers.

All those arguing for games in WMS have to offer are potential losses, immediate and down the road. The margin of error for these estimations is absolutely massive, and that should be recognized every time discussing them.

That doesn't mean the potential pitfalls don't exist, though. Even if it might take two decades or longer for them to materialize. I'm not worried about losing the support of Little Rock. It's the towns on the fringes of the state that currently still send athletes to an extent, but more importantly students that in turn become boosters.

Do the benefits of moving the games outweigh the potential losses? Almost certainly when basing the decision 100% on financials, especially when you look at where we are getting our students from and how the population of the fringes of the state is dwindling. That doesn't mean that something won't be lost.  We'll lose a part of what makes us unique. Like no other.

A lot of people have called it sad in the course of saying it needs to be done. It's certainly that, which is why it's so baffling why some refuse to recognize and offer the delicacy the situation calls for.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: DirkPiggler on February 12, 2012, 08:36:22 PM
WTF are you talking about?  This is 100% incorrect.

There is nothing incorrect at all in my statement. 

As someone else posted, we hosted exactly three kids for official visits at home games this season.  That's three out of I believe 55 official visits you are allowed to have per season.  The only disadvantage with respect to recruiting is that we currently cannot host recruits on UNofficial visits for more than one game away from the campus.  And I'm not meaning to diminish the importance of unofficial visits either.  But if we play only one game in WMS as I and many others have suggested, then we can host kids at that WMS game and there is no disadvantage. 

Please feel free to dispute these facts with facts of your own.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Hogtired on February 12, 2012, 08:41:29 PM

A lot of people have called it sad in the course of saying it needs to be done. It's certainly that, which is why it's so baffling why some refuse to recognize and offer the delicacy the situation calls for.

Because everyone with an opinion knows best and will tell you so. This is an emotional issue and this thread shows it
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 12, 2012, 08:58:41 PM
Arguing the financials is pointless. Fayetteville wins out every time, by a margin that varies depending on how fast and loose you play with the numbers.


No one is disputing that RRS >>>> WMS in direct revenue. But it is irritating for the "move the games" crowd to act like RRS is a federal reserve printing press. There are a few issues that mitigate the financial gap, although there is obviously still a gap.

The main ones are:

-- the much larger amount of students in RRS at $1/ticket
-- the $10 LR surcharge (which should be bumped by $5/year until it reaches $20)
-- and the fact that the games we are talking about moving in the future would draw more like 60-65,000 vs. a full house when compared to LR's 55,000 (and that's not including any seats that might be added in expansion)


I bet the direct revenue for say, a New Mexico, is a lot closer than you'd think. I'd also expect that the direct revenue for an LSU, is a lot farther apart than you might think.

 

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Southern Yeoman on February 12, 2012, 09:10:15 PM
Shouldn't you be watching Smokey and the Bandit?  Seriously, GFY.
I don't need to watch.  I am Gator McKlusky, son.  Heh-heh.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Phat_Hawg on February 12, 2012, 09:25:02 PM
You are so confident, and so wrong.

Looking at Rivals, we only brought recruits in on official visits for one game, Auburn. And only 3 kids were on officials.

rEally?

http://www.arkansassports360.com/27563/otis-kirk-official-visits-list-grows-for-razorbacks-in-season-van-horn-anderson-prepare-for-early-singees (http://www.arkansassports360.com/27563/otis-kirk-official-visits-list-grows-for-razorbacks-in-season-van-horn-anderson-prepare-for-early-singees)

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 12, 2012, 09:34:34 PM
rEally?

http://www.arkansassports360.com/27563/otis-kirk-official-visits-list-grows-for-razorbacks-in-season-van-horn-anderson-prepare-for-early-singees (http://www.arkansassports360.com/27563/otis-kirk-official-visits-list-grows-for-razorbacks-in-season-van-horn-anderson-prepare-for-early-singees)

Rivals info vs. Grit Kirk, believe what you will. I didn't recognize 90 % those guys listed, and none of them signed here excepting the ones that were in Rivals' database as having been here on officials.

The point remains. Bump the numbers from 3 the Auburn weekend to 6 (gasp!), and we still bring most of our guys in after the season. Also, you ain't bringing guys in on officials to LA Monroe or Weber State. You bring a shitload of unofficials in for Auburn, Bama, etc., and a few officials. In other words, the couple of rent-a-wins you play in Little Rock aren't big visit weekends, anyway.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Phat_Hawg on February 12, 2012, 09:35:48 PM
Rivals info vs. Grit Kirk, believe what you will.

So you're saying Grit is wrong then?  We didn't host 6 players at Auburn and several for the Tenn game? 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 12, 2012, 09:53:22 PM
So you're saying Grit is wrong then?  We didn't host 6 players at Auburn and several for the Tenn game?

I'm saying this:

Rivals info vs. Grit Kirk, believe what you will.


The point is moot, though. Those are both SEC games, which should all be in Fayetteville. I'd love to see the numbers on official visits to non-SEC games in the last ten years, or hell, five, cause that's all that matters. I bet the number is miniscule.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Phat_Hawg on February 12, 2012, 09:59:57 PM

The point is moot, though.

You are so confident, and so wrong.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 12, 2012, 10:52:56 PM
What do you want me to say? If Grit says we had six and Rivals said we had 3, well, I'm glad that was some kind of groundbreaking "gotcha" moment for you that Otis Kirk contradicted what I got from Rivals. Other than that, I don't know what you are trying to prove.

Then you parse my words as if you work for a Super PAC out of Washington after I hypothetically allowed that even if your numbers are right, it doesn't prove anything that LR games are detrimental to recruiting from logistics standpoint for officials. Coaches don't typically rely on games for our big visit weekends. We had nearly 35 officials (rough number, I'm sure you'll bust me out and find that it was 33 or 34 from one of the 18 recruiting sources, as legit as they all are) the last 3 weekends of the recruiting season. That leaves 20 visits total out of the 55 allowed, and we rarely use all of our visits.

If we did indeed have 6 for Auburn and "several" for Tennessee (5 or 6), then that leaves ten visist total, which we may not have even used. So assuming Otis was correct....which is what you seem to want to do for some reason, it still proves my point: The staff will take advanage of one or two SEC games and bring a few visitors in, with the vast majority coming to campus in January and several games having zero official visitors. And especially not the directional schools of the world.


Now....feel free to pull a random sentence or two out of context to try and prove your point.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: ocelot_ark on February 13, 2012, 07:15:45 AM
The official visitor issue, for me, isn't about what's been done in the past.  It's about what might be necessary in the future.

If there's a stud recruit from, say, Texas that has a passing interest in Arkansas but not much more than that...and let's say he happens to have a bye week during Louisiana Monroe @ LR.  He wouldn't normally be able to come at all because of his part time job, but he happens to have the weekend off. 

Has that situation happened before? No one knows.  But I would rather us have the flexibility to be able to tell one of those recruits, "Yeah, we'd love to host you on an official this weekend" regardless of the weekend.

...like every other school in college football.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Phat_Hawg on February 13, 2012, 11:33:08 AM
What do you want me to say? If Grit says we had six and Rivals said we had 3, well, I'm glad that was some kind of groundbreaking "gotcha" moment for you that Grit contradicted what I got from Rivals. Other than that, I don't know what you are trying to prove.



Richard Davenport says 11 so take it for what it's worth.  And you're one to whine about "gotcha" moments when you swoop in with "you're oh so confidant and oh so wrong" and then throw out bullshit info to prove my wrongness.

Fact is that you put out incorrect info to support your position, got called out on it, and are now too chickenshit to admit it was bullshit info.  Pretty much calls into question else you post such as your familiarity with Chartwells when disputing someone else's numbers.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 13, 2012, 11:49:44 AM
Another reason for moving another game is so we have fewer threads like this in the future.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 13, 2012, 12:25:57 PM
Richard Davenport says 11 so take it for what it's worth.  And you're one to whine about "gotcha" moments when you swoop in with "you're oh so confidant and oh so wrong" and then throw out bullshit info to prove my wrongness.

Fact is that you put out incorrect info to support your position, got called out on it, and are now too chickenshit to admit it was bullshit info.  Pretty much calls into question else you post such as your familiarity with Chartwells when disputing someone else's numbers.

You didnt read a damn thing I posted.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: wmr on February 13, 2012, 03:07:01 PM
The schedule also seems to be shifting in favor of Fayetteville:

IF they give us Mizzou as a permanent east opponent, we are trading a fanbase on the east coast (Carolina) with one that is 5 hours away, with a large part of its fanbase 3.5 hours away.

IF we go Home & Home with TAMU, we are basically giving up another east team for a team who views us as one of their two closest road trips, and the closest road game for their DFW area fans.

South Carolina is always a game that we have turn-backs for every other year, simply because its so far away for the visiting fans.

We shouldn't have that issue with TAMU or Mizzou in the future.

Anyone who has been to the LSU baseball series at Baum knows they'll have no problem filling their allotment for a football game in Fayetteville.  They have a lot of fans locally, and their fan-base always travels well.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: DirkPiggler on February 13, 2012, 04:52:10 PM
The schedule also seems to be shifting in favor of Fayetteville:

IF they give us Mizzou as a permanent east opponent, we are trading a fanbase on the east coast (Carolina) with one that is 5 hours away, with a large part of its fanbase 3.5 hours away.

IF we go Home & Home with TAMU, we are basically giving up another east team for a team who views us as one of their two closest road trips, and the closest road game for their DFW area fans.

South Carolina is always a game that we have turn-backs for every other year, simply because its so far away for the visiting fans.

We shouldn't have that issue with TAMU or Mizzou in the future.

Anyone who has been to the LSU baseball series at Baum knows they'll have no problem filling their allotment for a football game in Fayetteville.  They have a lot of fans locally, and their fan-base always travels well.

It's highly doubtful that Missouri will sell their full allotment of 8,000 to a game in Fayetteville, Little Rock, or anywhere else outside of the state of Misery.  That doesn't detract from your point;  it's just a statement of how mickey mouse the Misery football program and their support will be. 
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: radioman on February 14, 2012, 07:14:10 AM
 :thumbup:
Another reason for moving another game is so we have fewer threads like this in the future.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: big_pig on February 14, 2012, 12:38:12 PM
this thread.  I fall for it every time.

(http://gifsoup.com/view6/2411301/megashark-o.gif)
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: bakervscarrr on February 14, 2012, 02:55:32 PM
So what happens to the old pig screen that we are replacing? 

Just asking.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: WPFM on February 14, 2012, 08:34:25 PM
So what happens to the old pig screen that we are replacing? 

Just asking.

dibs.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Death By Sooiecide on February 17, 2012, 10:11:55 AM
And we play LSU in Fayetteville
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Death By Sooiecide on February 17, 2012, 10:12:56 AM
Ole Miss and Monroe in Little Rock.


Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Sliver72 on February 17, 2012, 10:43:33 AM
Ole Miss and Monroe in Little Rock.
That's fair.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Sus-Scrofa on February 17, 2012, 10:51:45 AM
GSD RIP
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Denny Crane on February 17, 2012, 12:22:29 PM
This is a perfect schedule to please everyone. Should always do something like this, could drop to one game in LR when we are away in home-and-home series.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on February 17, 2012, 01:39:33 PM
This is a perfect schedule to please everyone. Should always do something like this, could drop to one game in LR when we are away in home-and-home series.

Doesn't prevent some dumbasses from being pissed off about ruining a "tradition" and running their mouths saying things that are absolutely ridiculous.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Judas on June 01, 2012, 02:47:29 PM
Chris Bahn, per the twitters

"SEC says Arkansas can now host recruits on unofficial visits in Little Rock and at "neutral site" (Jerry World) games."



Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Cerdo on June 01, 2012, 02:54:41 PM
Wait.... this is going to mess with the paranoia of the typical Razorback fan, who is sure the SEC and sporting world are constantly plotting to make Hog fan's suffer.

Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Redbug on June 01, 2012, 03:10:57 PM
Wait.... this is going to mess with the paranoia of the typical Razorback fan, who is sure the SEC and sporting world are constantly plotting to make Hog fan's suffer.

They are....it's a conspiracy....trying to lure the program into a feeling of wellbeing with this newfangled recruiting access....all the while plotting to keep us down and playing in that shithole....

like you and others have mentioned....play friggin howlin n shit to open the season down there for a set period of time and then be done with it....
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Hackfuck McDouche on June 01, 2012, 03:17:38 PM
....
....
....
....

....
....

God damn it, didn't even make it to the 2nd without using up June's allotment.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Judas on June 01, 2012, 03:50:58 PM
God damn it, didn't even make it to the 2nd without using up June's allotment.
If we're only allowed 6 per month... we're fucked.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Ty Webb on June 01, 2012, 03:54:23 PM
Chris Bahn, per the twitters

"SEC says Arkansas can now host recruits on unofficial visits in Little Rock and at "neutral site" (Jerry World) games."
Now Long can move back the LSU game to it's rightful place at WMS without any drawbacks.  8-)
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Clark on June 01, 2012, 05:06:44 PM
Chris Bahn, per the twitters

"SEC says Arkansas can now host recruits on unofficial visits in Little Rock and at "neutral site" (Jerry World) games."
10 bucks says Alabama, Auburn, Florida, and Georgia are the reason for this.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Aporkalypse_Now on June 01, 2012, 10:40:56 PM
10 bucks says Alabama, Auburn, Florida, and Georgia are the reason for this.

The rule doesn't affect any other team right now.  You can have unofficials at another stadium once a year, but no more than that.  So the Cocktail Party isn't a negative for those teams now.

We were the only team affected.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on June 02, 2012, 01:48:28 PM
The rule doesn't affect any other team right now.  You can have unofficials at another stadium once a year, but no more than that.  So the Cocktail Party isn't a negative for those teams now.

We were the only team affected.

The UF-UGA game was grandfathered in anyways.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: BASS on June 02, 2012, 02:30:46 PM
Now Long can move back the LSU game to it's rightful place at WMS without any drawbacks.  8-)

yeah, because the recruiting visits is teh real reason behind wanting to move games to fayetteville.  money has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
Post by: Stephen Colboar on June 02, 2012, 05:19:06 PM
Chris Bahn is reporting that Arkansas and A&M co-sponsored the amended recruiting legislation.
One would think that pretty much seals a commitment to the Arlington game for the future after this short hiatus.