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Author Topic: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread  (Read 121084 times)

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Offline Hog X

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2008, 03:18:36 PM »
Your knowledge of history sucks.

I'll talk out of my ass as I please.

Offline Deja Vu

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2008, 03:20:34 PM »
I'll talk out of my ass as I please.

We will NEVER let the facts get in the way of a good, humorous argument on teh Woppussy.

I'm perplexed by the negative feedback. I just don't get it. What's wrong with you?


No, why are ya'll going through my myspace and stuff, obsessive??

Offline Dr. HawgLove

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2008, 03:24:57 PM »
I can compare the fact that Babe Ruth pitched also besides hitting. Pujols is a great hitter no doubt but he's not stealing games defensively like Mays did. Best ever is a long ways away from being given to him. If he maintains this type of average and breaks the all time HR record maybe we can talk.

Best of his generation?
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Offline Stephen Colboar

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2008, 03:46:02 PM »
I can compare the fact that Babe Ruth pitched also besides hitting. Pujols is a great hitter no doubt but he's not stealing games defensively like Mays did. Best ever is a long ways away from being given to him. If he maintains this type of average and breaks the all time HR record maybe we can talk.
I'm not saying I think he is the best ever right now.

He has the potential to be.


That's a LONG ways from actually being the best ever.

Offline Hackfuck McDouche

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2008, 03:47:32 PM »
Best of his generation?

If he continues at current pacing, it will be ARod and then Pujols.

Offline Pumpkin Escobar

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2008, 03:49:45 PM »
Best of his generation?

Depends on how ARod finishes his career but a case can be made for that claim.
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Offline Stephen Colboar

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2008, 03:52:21 PM »
Depends on how ARod finishes his career but a case can be made for that claim.
and I do agree with you and Alpharetta there.

Offline Dr. HawgLove

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2008, 04:28:53 PM »
Most consistent then.
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Offline Hackfuck McDouche

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2008, 04:34:37 PM »
Most consistent then.

Thanks, Joe Morgan.

Offline piggus diccus

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2008, 05:15:57 PM »
I can compare the fact that Babe Ruth pitched also besides hitting.

I guess he ran pretty good for a fat boy.

Offline HipHog

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2008, 05:19:38 PM »
How many more years till we can officially declare Pujols the greatest baseball player ever?

Year  Tm    G    AB    R      H    2B  3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA    OBP  SLG *OPS  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP     GDP
2001  STL  161  590  112  194  47  4   37  130   1  3  69   93  .329  .403  .610  157  360   1   7   6   9  21    SS,MVP-4,RoY-1,AS
2002  STL  157  590  118  185  40  2   34  127   2  4  72   69  .314  .394  .561  151  331   0   4  13   9  20    MVP-2
2003  STL  157  591  137  212  51  1   43  124   5  1  79   65  .359  .439  .667  187  394   0   5  12  10  13   SS,MVP-2,AS
2004  STL  154  592  133  196  51  2   46  123   5  5  84   52  .331  .415  .657  172  389   0   9  12   7  21    SS,MVP-3,AS
2005  STL  161  591  129  195  38  2   41  117  16  2  97  65  .330  .430  .609  168  360   0   3  27   9  19    MVP-1,AS
2006  STL  143  535  119  177  33  1   49  137   7  2  92   50  .331  .431  .671  178  359   0   3  28   4  20    MVP-2,AS
2007  STL  158  565   99  185  38   1   32  103   2  6  99   58  .327  .429  .568  157  321   0   8  22   7  27    MVP-9,AS
2008  STL   23   77    14   29     6   0    4   17    2  0  22     7  .377  .525  .610   200   47   0   0   6   2   1


I'm going to go for 3 more years.  Worst batting average ever is .314, least HR's 32, and most strikeouts ever was in his rookie season with 93.  And he's got a ring.

Crown his ass!

wow, please remove alberts porkula from your mouf ...pronto.

the dude is good, BUT greatest ever. PLEASE
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Offline piggus diccus

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2008, 05:37:58 PM »
Greatest first 7 years ever, probably.  Greatest Cardinal ever, maybe.  Greatest of all time, too soon to say.  Probably won't win that poll outside of the heartland even at the end of his career.  But I am damned happy he is a Card.

Several legendary players through the same phase in their careers.  (baseball reference dot com)
Sim  Player              From  To Yrs   G    AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB   SO    BA   OBP   SLG   SB   CS OPS

 Albert Pujols       2001-2007  7 1091  4054  847 1344 298  13 282  861  592  452  .332  .420  .620   38  23  167
 883* Joe DiMaggio        1936-1942  7  979  3978  858 1349 243  82 219  930  404  196  .339  .403  .607   25   7  159
 880* Jimmie Foxx         1925-1935 11 1256  4397  975 1492 257  79 302 1075  781  644  .339  .440  .640   48  41  174
 876* Frank Robinson      1956-1963  8 1190  4377  831 1327 247  39 262  800  549  622  .303  .389  .557  125  43  148
 875  Ken Griffey         1989-1997  9 1214  4593  820 1389 261  24 294  872  580  755  .302  .381  .562  123  48  150
 869* Hank Aaron          1954-1961  8 1194  4717  829 1506 264  67 253  863  397  442  .319  .371  .565   57  25  153
 850* Mickey Mantle       1951-1959  9 1246  4478  994 1392 208  54 280  841  892  899  .311  .425  .569   98  25  173
 849  Hal Trosky          1933-1940  8 1035  4055  715 1274 270  53 205  860  405  352  .314  .378  .559   20  16  136
 847  Vladimir Guerrero   1996-2003  8 1004  3763  641 1215 226  34 234  702  381  484  .323  .390  .588  123  71  148
 840* Lou Gehrig          1923-1930  8  921  3327  774 1139 248  89 187  811  581  414  .342  .443  .639   42  45  180
 826* Orlando Cepeda      1958-1965  8 1095  4129  647 1272 224  22 223  752  255  625  .308  .352  .535   92  45  140

Offline Pumpkin Escobar

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2008, 05:50:31 PM »
I guess he ran pretty good for a fat boy.

He went 13-7 with a 2.22 era and 166 IP plus hit .300 11 hr's 11 3b's 26 2b's and 66 rbi's in 317 ab's that year. Let me know when somebody can duplicate that. People like to dismiss players from that era but it sure took a long time to break his HR records and it took roided up freaks to break them again.
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Offline ArkGuy

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2008, 08:12:10 PM »
Greatest first 7 years ever, probably.  Greatest Cardinal ever, maybe.  Greatest of all time, too soon to say.  Probably won't win that poll outside of the heartland even at the end of his career.  But I am damned happy he is a Card.

Several legendary players through the same phase in their careers.  (baseball reference dot com)
Sim  Player              From  To Yrs   G    AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB   SO    BA   OBP   SLG   SB   CS OPS

 Albert Pujols       2001-2007  7 1091  4054  847 1344 298  13 282  861  592  452  .332  .420  .620   38  23  167
 883* Joe DiMaggio        1936-1942  7  979  3978  858 1349 243  82 219  930  404  196  .339  .403  .607   25   7  159
 880* Jimmie Foxx         1925-1935 11 1256  4397  975 1492 257  79 302 1075  781  644  .339  .440  .640   48  41  174
 876* Frank Robinson      1956-1963  8 1190  4377  831 1327 247  39 262  800  549  622  .303  .389  .557  125  43  148
 875  Ken Griffey         1989-1997  9 1214  4593  820 1389 261  24 294  872  580  755  .302  .381  .562  123  48  150
 869* Hank Aaron          1954-1961  8 1194  4717  829 1506 264  67 253  863  397  442  .319  .371  .565   57  25  153
 850* Mickey Mantle       1951-1959  9 1246  4478  994 1392 208  54 280  841  892  899  .311  .425  .569   98  25  173
 849  Hal Trosky          1933-1940  8 1035  4055  715 1274 270  53 205  860  405  352  .314  .378  .559   20  16  136
 847  Vladimir Guerrero   1996-2003  8 1004  3763  641 1215 226  34 234  702  381  484  .323  .390  .588  123  71  148
 840* Lou Gehrig          1923-1930  8  921  3327  774 1139 248  89 187  811  581  414  .342  .443  .639   42  45  180
 826* Orlando Cepeda      1958-1965  8 1095  4129  647 1272 224  22 223  752  255  625  .308  .352  .535   92  45  140


That's some pretty impresive company.

Of non-active players, I'd say Mays, Ruth, Cobb, in that order.

TEd Wiliams and Bob Feller both missed several years in their prime for WWII and, in Williams' case, Korea.

By the way, Ruth said the greatest hitter he ever saw was Joe Jackson.  Were his recods not erased, he'd have the third highest BA of all time.
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Offline Sweet River Baines

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2008, 08:44:31 PM »
He went 13-7 with a 2.22 era and 166 IP plus hit .300 11 hr's 11 3b's 26 2b's and 66 rbi's in 317 ab's that year. Let me know when somebody can duplicate that. People like to dismiss players from that era but it sure took a long time to break his HR records and it took roided up freaks to break them again.

Plus, Ruth swung anywhere from 40 to 54 ounce bat during his career. Let's see Pujols swing a 50 ounce bat and hit 40 hrs.  O0
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Offline piggus diccus

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2008, 08:59:19 PM »
The teams in the Ruth era had 3 or 4 man rotations and pitchers routinely pitched complete games.  Guys would throw upwards of 20 complete games in a season.  I guaran-damn tee ya Ruth and Cobb and a lot of first half of the 20th century legends faced a lot of worn down shitty ass pitching.

Offline The Cowboy Tiger

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2008, 09:15:07 PM »
He went 13-7 with a 2.22 era and 166 IP plus hit .300 11 hr's 11 3b's 26 2b's and 66 rbi's in 317 ab's that year. Let me know when somebody can duplicate that. People like to dismiss players from that era but it sure took a long time to break his HR records and it took roided up freaks to break them again.

Maris did it w/o roids.

Still the champ.
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Offline Sweet River Baines

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2008, 09:24:00 PM »
The teams in the Ruth era had 3 or 4 man rotations and pitchers routinely pitched complete games.  Guys would throw upwards of 20 complete games in a season.  I guaran-damn tee ya Ruth and Cobb and a lot of first half of the 20th century legends faced a lot of worn down shitty ass pitching.

They also had no trainers, no weight training to speak of, and traveled on trains. Oh yeah, they all had regular jobs during the summer too.
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Offline Snorts

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2008, 10:01:08 PM »
Ruth faced legal spitballs.

Jackson never experienced the inevitable fall off of late career that nearly all the other 'greats' did.  He was banned before he got old.
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Offline Return of the Hogi

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2008, 10:11:23 PM »
How can a two tool player be considered the best ever?

How do you call him a two tool player?  He is very good with the glove, and has a good arm for a 1b.  I dont know if he can run or not, but I do know that his fielding, running, and throwing compares to any first baseman out there.  His hitting for power and average are among the best of all time, but that doesnt make him a two tool player. 

Offline tgp2585

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2008, 10:38:24 PM »
I do not buy for a second the argument about the pitchers being tired.  First of all, there is absolutely no evidence to support that, given that ERA's were consistantly lower.  Are you really trying to say that Ruth had an advantage because he faced one of the 48 best pitchers in the game (16 Teams X 3 Starters) while they may have been slightly gassed?  Compare that to the hitters of today facing one of the best 150 pitchers in the game (30 teams X 5).  I promise you a tired Walter Johnson was a hundred times better than an energized Jason Marquis.  That's not even to mention the middle relief duds that pitch so much now who would have never even sniffed the big leagues back then. 

Besides all that, the parks were HUGE.  Pujols has not even come close to being the power hitter that Ruth was all while playing in much smaller parks.  There's a book out right now where a guy, who I will admit probably had way too much time on his hands, went back and predicted that playing in today's parks, Babe Ruth would have hit 104 home runs in 1927. 

Why is this even an argument?  Ruth has a career line of .342/.474/.690 for a career OPS of 1.164.  Pujols has a career line of .332/.442/.620 for an OPS of 1.042.  Not really all that close, although closer than most.  But even if they were even, Pujols would then need to go pitch three shutouts in the World Series to say he was in Ruth's league. 

Offline ArkGuy

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2008, 11:44:47 PM »
I do not buy for a second the argument about the pitchers being tired.  First of all, there is absolutely no evidence to support that, given that ERA's were consistantly lower.  Are you really trying to say that Ruth had an advantage because he faced one of the 48 best pitchers in the game (16 Teams X 3 Starters) while they may have been slightly gassed?  Compare that to the hitters of today facing one of the best 150 pitchers in the game (30 teams X 5).  I promise you a tired Walter Johnson was a hundred times better than an energized Jason Marquis.  That's not even to mention the middle relief duds that pitch so much now who would have never even sniffed the big leagues back then. 

Besides all that, the parks were HUGE.  Pujols has not even come close to being the power hitter that Ruth was all while playing in much smaller parks.  There's a book out right now where a guy, who I will admit probably had way too much time on his hands, went back and predicted that playing in today's parks, Babe Ruth would have hit 104 home runs in 1927. 

Why is this even an argument?  Ruth has a career line of .342/.474/.690 for a career OPS of 1.164.  Pujols has a career line of .332/.442/.620 for an OPS of 1.042.  Not really all that close, although closer than most.  But even if they were even, Pujols would then need to go pitch three shutouts in the World Series to say he was in Ruth's league. 

You've been waiting for weeks, perhaps months, for the conversation to turn to an appropriate topic for you to make your first post.  Then ...

BOOM .... you pounce.

The first and third points are excellent, which is to say I agree with them.  However ...

The parks were not all huge and some that had huge deminsions in one or two areas were shorter elsewhere.  For example, Ruth's right field was 295 down the line while Death Vallley was originally 460 to left center.  Ruth and the Yankees played in the Polo Grounds until '23.  Shaped like a giant bathtub, it was over 500 to dead center but less than 260 down the lines.  And when Yankee Stadium was built, most parks seated fewer than 40,000, like Fenway.  Pretty much shaped like now.  So they weren't all that hard to hit homers in, once they modernized the ball.
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Offline Stephen Colboar

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2008, 12:07:47 AM »
You've got so many different factors to figure in from vastly different eras of the game...

It's like saying that Bobby Jones would smoke Tiger Woods with today's golf equipment and fitting technology.


The use of videotape and scouting for specific weaknesses on a pitching staff and in specific hitters is so specialized and technical now. I'm not saying that Cy Young would get run off the mound today, just that we have no fricking clue. Guys often never figured out pitchers like that because the only scouting they did was eyeballs and memories of past AB's. The difference was guys like Ruth who had such amazing hand-eye coordination and instincts in terms of anticipating pitches in certain counts that made them so special. Who knows what he would do today against someone as mediocre as a Jason Marquis, who has the availability of hours of video tape and the opportunity to analyze each AB that a hitter has ever taken.

It's an apples and oranges comparison. It's fun to compare stats and eras and such in baseball just because of all the statistics available and factors to take into consideration... you'll never get anywhere though. Someone like a Vladmir Guerrero would probably thrive in yesteryears... but we'll never know for sure.

Offline Count Porkula

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2008, 01:39:07 AM »
How do you call him a two tool player?  He is very good with the glove, and has a good arm for a 1b.  I dont know if he can run or not, but I do know that his fielding, running, and throwing compares to any first baseman out there.  His hitting for power and average are among the best of all time, but that doesnt make him a two tool player. 

Throwing?  Where the frick does he throw, back to the mound?
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Offline Pumpkin Escobar

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Re: The annual Pujols is the best player ever thread
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2008, 01:41:08 AM »
The teams in the Ruth era had 3 or 4 man rotations and pitchers routinely pitched complete games.  Guys would throw upwards of 20 complete games in a season.  I guaran-damn tee ya Ruth and Cobb and a lot of first half of the 20th century legends faced a lot of worn down shitty ass pitching.

Ok... you want to go there? With so many teams now how many legit MLB quality pitchers do batters face when not playing a big market team?


Maris did it w/o roids.

Still the champ.

I wasn't refering to him or Hank.
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