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Author Topic: Enrollment, campus growth  (Read 80986 times)

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Offline Aporkalypse_Now

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1000 on: April 16, 2014, 09:38:54 AM »
I sure am seeing a lot more DOs now than I did 20 years ago;  especially in Family Medicine. I don't interact with very many, so I don't have an opinion about them one way or another.

Things might be different now, but when I was in my residency at Parkland(88-92,) no DOs were allowed in ANY of the residency programs. When I was admitted to Med school 30 yrs ago, nobody I knew even considered DO school. I don't know if that was justified or fair, and I don't know if that has changed.

I DO know that in my generation of MDs, there is a real bias against DOs or FMGs.

I agree with the assessment about community-based training programs. Family Medicine programs such as the one we have in Waco can sometimes be quite good, but Internists and other specialties are better trained in larger programs. Just my opinion

The DO school in Ft Worth that's associated with UNT isn't bad, nor is the one in Tulsa.  The one in FW is competitive and you definitely see some get into programs at UTSW and Baylor-Dallas now.  I think the bias in other places is because of the inconsistent and relatively poor quality of DO programs elsewhere.  I think the main reason Ft Worth's is so good is that they get a lot of university and state funding and they have JPS, which is an enormous free hospital where they get experience.  A lot of DO schools across the country are small, private, rural and not associated with large hospitals.

At UAMS very few DOs got into residency programs on the main campus.  The AHECs have a few of them, though.

Offline Ob Gyn Kenobi

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1001 on: April 16, 2014, 10:55:59 AM »
The DO school in Ft Worth that's associated with UNT isn't bad, nor is the one in Tulsa.  The one in FW is competitive and you definitely see some get into programs at UTSW and Baylor-Dallas now.  I think the bias in other places is because of the inconsistent and relatively poor quality of DO programs elsewhere.  I think the main reason Ft Worth's is so good is that they get a lot of university and state funding and they have JPS, which is an enormous free hospital where they get experience.  A lot of DO schools across the country are small, private, rural and not associated with large hospitals.

At UAMS very few DOs got into residency programs on the main campus.  The AHECs have a few of them, though.
[/quote/

I employ 3 CNMs and 4 NP's . They are invaluable in our practice.  The 8 MDs in our practice all came from well-known ObGyn programs. I wouldn't have a problem hiring a DO who had trained at a place like Parkland.

I'm very proud of my degree from UTSW and even more proud of the 4 yrs of Starkville I spent there during my residency.
BUt it isn't  lost on me that the worst MD I saw in my residency was from Harvard, and one of the best was from TTech(at the time, had a poor reputation.) Good Drs come from a variety of places.
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Online chittlins

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1002 on: April 16, 2014, 01:16:48 PM »
Isn't the a medical school proposed for Ft. Smith for D.Os? You'll knew about that, right?

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1003 on: April 16, 2014, 03:24:14 PM »
A few of my best attendings turned out to be DOs.  One in particular is brilliant.  She is board certified in internal med and psych.  She is a GREAT clinician. 

My best friend is a D.O.  He is making $250,000 as a hospitalist in a psych hospital.  7 days on 7 days off. 

Offline Aporkalypse_Now

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1004 on: April 16, 2014, 07:08:19 PM »
Isn't the a medical school proposed for Ft. Smith for D.Os? You'll knew about that, right?

Jonesboro.

I don't think it could ever happen, but if it did it would be a clear example of a "bad" DO program.  Not enough patients or large enough hospitals up there.

Offline West Texas Hog

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1005 on: April 16, 2014, 07:10:15 PM »
Jonesboro.

I don't think it could ever happen, but if it did it would be a clear example of a "bad" DO program.  Not enough patients or large enough hospitals up there.

It's actually both.  Fort Smith already has the land donated for the one there.

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1006 on: April 16, 2014, 08:27:50 PM »
It's actually both.  Fort Smith already has the land donated for the one there.

Being backed by the Okie Tribes too.

Offline Aporkalypse_Now

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1007 on: April 16, 2014, 09:27:05 PM »
We don't need a DO school in either.  The state doesn't produce enough quality applicants for UAMS as is.  A DO school would really be getting the dregs.

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1008 on: April 17, 2014, 07:39:31 AM »
We don't need a DO school in either.  The state doesn't produce enough quality applicants for UAMS as is.  A DO school would really be getting the dregs.

It doesn't matter about what's needed, only what's wanted. You should know this. ;D

Offline Stephen Hawging

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1009 on: April 17, 2014, 08:29:54 AM »
The general priorities at most UAMS residencies are:

US grads
Foreign grads (India, Pakistan, Middle East)
DO grads
Americans that went to Caribbean schools because they couldn't get in.

In Texas and Oklahoma they look much more favorably on DOs.

I think last year's interns at UAMS (main campus) were nearly 50% foreign grads.  I've been told UAMS makes extra money on these students for sponsoring their VISAs or something.  Most med schools don't have nearly that high a foreign percentage, so I've always assumed there is a financial incentive in there somehow. 

Anyway, its certainly not a big deal to me, as many of the foreign grads are really brilliant, and I've known several who were experienced board-certified specialists in their country of origin and who had already practiced for a number of years before coming over here and having to go thru a US residency/fellowship.

Regarding DOs, one of the best cardiologists I've ever known, and definitely the best OB I've ever known were DOs.  I know it may be a bit of a head-scratcher to think about putting a DO school in Arkansas, but we kind of have a screwed up system when it comes to applicants anyway, and it may be helpful for certain geographies within the state.  I read in the paper a year or so ago that UAMS applicants from in-state are split into three geographic groups, all running East/West:

Northern
Central
Southern

Each section is given an equal number of acceptances.  This would make it much more difficult for a college grad from Little Rock to gain acceptance than, say a grad from Texarkana, just simply due to the larger population numbers -- the central section has West Memphis, Little Rock metro, Russellville, Fort Smith.  The article actually reported that more than a few applicants have taken steps to show a change of residency from one region to another to help their chances of admission.
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Offline Won Nutt Hung Lo

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1010 on: April 17, 2014, 09:01:33 AM »
Isn't there a nationwide shortage of residency slots?  I would think adding DO schools will make it worse. 

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1011 on: April 17, 2014, 10:37:11 AM »
58 million osteopathic medical college planned for Chaffee Crossing (Updated)
Submitted by The City Wire staff on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 3:30pm
story by Michael Tilley
mtilley@thecitywire.com
Editor’s note: Story is updated with changes and additions throughout.


Click to view 8 images.
Fort Smith could soon be home to Arkansas’ first college of osteopathic medicine and one of just 31 in the U.S., thanks to a more than $58 million investment from the Fort Smith Regional Healthcare Foundation (FSRHF) and a grant of 200 acres from the Fort Chaffee Redevelopment Authority (FCRA).
Officials with the FSRHF, the FCRA and area cities made the announcement during a Tuesday (Feb. 18) afternoon press conference at the River Valley Nature Center at Chaffee Crossing. More than 85 people attended the press conference.
The possibility of such a medical school estimated to have a $100 million annual economic impact on the region was first reported by The City Wire in December 2013. At the time, Foundation officials were in the feasibility phase of the project.
FSRHF Chairman Kyle Parker told The City Wire that a fully operational school would serve about 600 students, and employ around 65 (full-time equivalent jobs) with an average salary of $103,000. That impact does not include adjunct professors that will be needed for the school, he said.
The school is targeted to accept its first cohort of students in the fall of 2017.
PROJECT HISTORY
Revenue from the 2009 purchase of Fort Smith-based Sparks Health System could be used to help build and operate the medical school. When Naples, Fla.-based Health Management Associates (HMA) acquired Sparks in a deal valued at $138 million, part of the money was used to create the Fort Smith Regional Healthcare Foundation.
Foundation initiatives include supporting scholarships for individuals seeking advanced medical training, the Community Dental Clinic in Fort Smith, health education programs in area schools, and other medical training options.
The college of osteopathic medicine plan has has early supporters. The Community Health Centers of Arkansas, which provides medical care in Arkansas’ rural areas, supports the idea, according to Tom Webb, executive director of the FSRHF. Endorsements also have come from the Arkansas Osteopathic Medical Association (AOMA), the Arkansas Society of the American College of Osteopathic Family Physicians (ACOFP), and the Arkansas Osteopathic Foundation (AOF).
Osteopathic medicine, according to the American Osteopathic Association, is “a complete system of medical care with a philosophy that combines the needs of the patient with the current practice of medicine, surgery and obstetrics; that emphasizes the interrelationship between structure and function; and that has an appreciation of the body's ability to heal itself.”
RECENT MOVES
On Tuesday, the FSRHF Board of Trustees voted to move forward with the project and hire a CEO and chief academic officer for the school.
Tuesday afternoon, the FCRA approved providing the school 200 acres near Chad Colley Boulevard, with the land valued at $4 million.
Working with the Arkansas Osteopathic Medical Association (AOMA), the FSRHF has developed several partnerships with regional medical providers. According to the FSRHF statement issued Tuesday, Mercy Health System, Sparks Health System, Cooper Clinic, the Choctaw Nation Health Services Authority and Community Health Centers of Arkansas “have indicated their desire to play integral roles in the clinical rotations and residency education of the proposed college.”
"The AOMA is extremely excited about the development of the proposed Arkansas College of Osteopathic Medicine to be located in Fort Smith,” Dr. James Baker, president of the AOMA, said in the statement. “We will continue to develop, partner with, and support those providing state-wide resources to help advance the Fort Smith Regional Healthcare Foundation's mission of establishing the school."
FCRA Executive Director Ivy Owen also said during the press conference that the FCRA has assisted “off and on for two years” with the project, and that the FCRA Board conducted “a lot of due diligence” before agreeing to provide the land.
Frazier Edwards, executive director of the Arkansas Osteopathic Medical Association, said the association was “extremely excited” to have this school planned for Arkansas, and that the association “will continue to develop and funnel resources” to the school.
Fort Smith Mayor Sandy Sanders called the school a “game changer” for the region.
THE PROJECT
In his remarks and media interview Tuesday afternoon, Parker said FSRHF Trustee Jim Walcott challenged the foundation to “move the needle” on the effort to “fill gaps in healthcare and provide care for the medically underserved regions in Arkansas and Oklahoma.”
The result of Walcott’s challenge could be a 200-acre campus built out in several phases. An initial layout drafted by Oklahoma City-based Crafton Tull shows the campus located immediately east of where a proposed third Fort Smith high school is located. The site is on both sides and just south of the Chad Colley Boulevard entrance into Chaffee Crossing. The plan calls for 87 acres on the west side of the boulevard and 113 acres on the east side.
The first phase of the medical school campus includes a 60,000-square foot building, several smaller buildings, a campus green, main entry, and a proposed pond. A second phase includes a “village green” area with more buildings.
Future development around the campus includes space for a medical office park and commercial and retail development.
Owen said the school is “highly compatible” with the Chaffee Crossing development goals.
“We are very excited to be a part of the plans to build this osteopathic medical university. Their plans dovetail nicely with our plans for this area. The wooded, open space, walkable-style campus is exactly what we want for Chaffee Crossing,” Owen said in the statement.
THE NEED
There are 30 colleges of osteopathic medicine (COMs), offering instruction at 40 locations in 28 states. There is not an osteopathy school in Arkansas. Twenty-four of the COMs are private; six are public. Should the development of an osteopathic school in Fort Smith happen, it would be a private, non-profit institution and not dependent on continuous public funds from the state.
Approximately 60% of practicing osteopathic physicians (DO) practice in the primary care specialties of family medicine, general internal medicine, pediatrics, and obstetrics and gynecology, according to information provided by the FSRHF.
Arkansas ranks 48th in physician accessibility in the United States. The western side of the state, including the Fort Smith region, has been identified as the most underserved area in Arkansas, according to the FSRHF.
“FSRHF was presented the opportunity to increase availability of care within medically underserved areas of the state by addressing the severe shortage of physicians through the development of a college,” noted the FSRHF statement.
In his notes, Parker thanked the following individuals for helping during the research phase of the project.
• Mr. Doug Babb, CEO, Cooper Clinic
• Dr. Cole Goodman, President, Mercy Clinic
• Dr. Jason Hill, Chief Medical Officer, Choctaw Nation Health Services Authority
• Ms. Sip Mouden, CEO, Community Health Centers of Arkansas
• Mr. Charles Stewart, CEO, Sparks Hospital

Offline acater

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1012 on: April 17, 2014, 12:11:33 PM »
I thought no one was gonna want to be a Doctor after Obamacare started? You guys haven't hot your HVAC or Plumbing licenses yet?  :D
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Offline Cerdo

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1013 on: April 17, 2014, 01:07:24 PM »
I thought no one was gonna want to be a Doctor after Obamacare started? You guys haven't hot your HVAC or Plumbing licenses yet?  :D
The insurance industry is about to go belly up any day now.  They're all losing money hand over fist according to their accounting offices... just like all of those dying professional sports franchises. 

Offline Aporkalypse_Now

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1014 on: April 17, 2014, 02:53:29 PM »
I think last year's interns at UAMS (main campus) were nearly 50% foreign grads.  I've been told UAMS makes extra money on these students for sponsoring their VISAs or something.  Most med schools don't have nearly that high a foreign percentage, so I've always assumed there is a financial incentive in there somehow. 

Anyway, its certainly not a big deal to me, as many of the foreign grads are really brilliant, and I've known several who were experienced board-certified specialists in their country of origin and who had already practiced for a number of years before coming over here and having to go thru a US residency/fellowship.

Regarding DOs, one of the best cardiologists I've ever known, and definitely the best OB I've ever known were DOs.  I know it may be a bit of a head-scratcher to think about putting a DO school in Arkansas, but we kind of have a screwed up system when it comes to applicants anyway, and it may be helpful for certain geographies within the state.  I read in the paper a year or so ago that UAMS applicants from in-state are split into three geographic groups, all running East/West:

Northern
Central
Southern

Each section is given an equal number of acceptances.  This would make it much more difficult for a college grad from Little Rock to gain acceptance than, say a grad from Texarkana, just simply due to the larger population numbers -- the central section has West Memphis, Little Rock metro, Russellville, Fort Smith.  The article actually reported that more than a few applicants have taken steps to show a change of residency from one region to another to help their chances of admission.

There is no financial incentive.  It's also more like 25% or less.  They fill their slots with local grads and other American grads and fill in the rest with foreign grads.  Dermatology, radiology, urology, ENT, and the like that are sought after never have foreign grads.  Internal medicine, geriatrics, and some of the fellowships fill up with foreign grads if they can't find qualified Americans.  That being said, they will take a really bright foreign grad over a really marginal American, and do so regularly. 

There aren't enough American grads wanting to go there to fill the slots.  If you go to many other programs in the region it's similar.  Shreveport is the worst, probably 80% foreign grads there.

People are under the quite false impression that the number of U.S. medical school and DO school grads determines the number of doctors in the U.S.  It's actually the number of residency slots, which is paid for by Medicare and has been frozen for some time.  Right now the number of U.S. MD and DO grads is going up and squeezing some of the foreigners out.  At the same time, though, the number of U.S. grads not finding a residency is surging.  Now up to 7%.  Apparently this very rarely happened at UAMS and is becoming more common now.

Traditionally 80% of UAMS acceptances are by congressional district.  If you live in Central Arkansas you have to have very high scores to get in.  NW Arkansas is a little bit easier, and it's way easier in South or Eastern Arkansas.  The remaining 20% come mostly from Central Ark, some from Northwest.  This wasn't as much about population as it was about the number of competitive college grads, which are concentrated in the Central and NW portions of the state.  You could also cheat this system but using a relative's address, a lakehouse in Hot Springs, or moving to Cabot.  They loosened this up some when they expanded UAMS enrollment and allowed them to take some out of state kids as well as many years they would've been letting kids in who just weren't qualified under the old system.

There are plenty of great DOs out there, one of my favorite docs that does the same thing I do at my hospital is a DO.  The upper third of the DO class in Ft Worth is better than the lower third at schools like UAMS, LSU-Shreveport, etc.  A lot of times it's one year of partying or 3 points too low on the MCAT that keep a great potential doctor out. 


Offline hogtimate29

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1015 on: April 17, 2014, 05:53:48 PM »
Architects are absolutely the dregs of the construction world. They don't understand how any part of construction works, and for the most part treat everything like they are in the studio with popsicle sticks making their models for class. Even worse, these days they don't even plan a whole building out, which is actually the most important part of their job, but instead just get an idea of what it will look like on the outside and work everything else out as it goes, without taking responsibility for any problems.
when you say this you are talking about marlon, but maurice jennings or david mckee will draw a complete set of details and expect them to be followed.
robert sharp is also a local architect with a firm grasp of structure. in short, your sweeping generalization is wrong.

Offline LashHog

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1016 on: April 17, 2014, 06:24:47 PM »
when you say this you are talking about marlon, but maurice jennings or david mckee will draw a complete set of details and expect them to be followed.
robert sharp is also a local architect with a firm grasp of structure. in short, your sweeping generalization is wrong.
To be fair...I wrote this a year ago and was in the middle of one of the worst planned out buildings you have ever seen. It was more of a message board vent than a factual report. I do not know Marlon, or Jennings, or McKee. My generalization is not wrong, it's just a generalization. There are no doubt good architects out there, but in general architects don't do a lot. In fact, it's getting to where a lot of engineers don't even do that much, but leave everything up to others calculations.

Although to be honest, I would prefer an architect who doesn't do a lot but also isn't picky, over one who doesn't do a lot but is still really picky about what you do, even though he hasn't really told you what to do. That nonsense of demanding something you've never asked for is annoying. If I wanted to deal with that I'd just stay home with my wife.
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Offline hogtimate29

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1017 on: April 17, 2014, 06:55:00 PM »
fair enough. some architects annoy me, too. i personally prefer an architect who spells it all out and demands flawless execution of his very thorough plan. flawless reproduction of a front elevation rendering with the details worked out by you for no extra money is more likely what you'll be asked for, though. some of those guys are badass, though. not at all bottom of the construction world. 

Offline Stephen Hawging

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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1018 on: April 17, 2014, 08:24:00 PM »
There is no financial incentive.  It's also more like 25% or less.  They fill their slots with local grads and other American grads and fill in the rest with foreign grads.  Dermatology, radiology, urology, ENT, and the like that are sought after never have foreign grads.  Internal medicine, geriatrics, and some of the fellowships fill up with foreign grads if they can't find qualified Americans.  That being said, they will take a really bright foreign grad over a really marginal American, and do so regularly. 


Well, I stand corrected then.   :beer:
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Re: Enrollment, campus growth
« Reply #1019 on: April 18, 2014, 01:34:40 PM »

People are under the quite false impression that the number of U.S. medical school and DO school grads determines the number of doctors in the U.S.  It's actually the number of residency slots, which is paid for by Medicare and has been frozen for some time. 
This.  People think the key to adding more docs is making more spots for med students.

Thats actually just making more MDs, without a residency slot, $200,000 in debt

 

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