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Author Topic: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824  (Read 19129 times)

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Offline ocelot_ark

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #100 on: February 09, 2012, 12:40:38 PM »
It's not about losing fans to other schools. I'm talking about gaining new ones over time. I'm talking about losing the identity that we are "Arkansas' team." It wouldn't be immediate, but some of that mystique would fade over time.

But who would become Arkansas' team? Who would the Arkansas media, suddenly, begin to shove down our throats?  That's my point.  Just because we move 2 games, which only 110,000 people get to attend each year, I don't see how the entire sports culture of Arkansas would suddenly change. That isn't logical to me.

If Razorback PR and media buzz isn't getting shoved down your throat from an early age, it's not going to matter whether you can watch the games on TV or not... Starkville, from that aspect, if I'm 9 or 10 RIGHT NOW, what's to keep me from deciding I'm an Oregon fan and moving on from there? They're accessible from a TV stand point, too.

Exactly.  TV has made the whole proximity thing a moot point.  Look at the "stud" recruits we've lost the last few years.  They've had Razorback propaganda, so to speak, shoved down their throats for years. But that didn't keep them from looking elsewhere.  That's why it's important to improve the program.  If we continue to make RRS and the program a great representation of the state, more and more recruits will come. We'll get better.  We'll be more of a household name.  Maybe we'd lose a few Arkansas fans.  Maybe we gain some from Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, etc.  It works both ways, right? The U of A has record enrollment.  Those kids will have kids.  They'll go to hog games. That will continue. The university continues to expand. NWA continues to expand.  I just don't see our fan base shrinking as long as we keep investing in the program.

You can call all of that fear and woe is me jargon and what-not if you want, it's a valid point. That mystique is what has always, to me, made this state and our program so unique. If you spend a lot of time here, you end up rooting for the Razorbacks. It's pretty fricking cool and I'd like to retain that as long as possible. Games in WMS DO play a role in that. More so than any game in Dallas. Not SEC games in WMS, not LSU games... just one non-con game. I'd even say every other year.

We don't have to be unique to be successful.  In fact, we've been unique since 1964 and we've got nothing to show for it. But I'm perfectly fine with letting LR have 1 crappy non-con game a year, especially if it's against LA-Monroe and it doesn't count as a home game for us.  But they need to expand that stadium to fit at least 65-70,000 people. They need to stop charging the UofA to play there. They need to let the UofA run concessions. Those things would at least make playing there not seem like such a step down.  Who's going to foot the bill, though? Is Arkansas in such a state of financial superiority that it can afford to throw money into WMS when one of the nicest college FB stadium sits just 2.5 hours up the road?  Maybe that's how the GSD debate should truly be settled.  Let the voters decide.  $50MM out of tax payers pockets to fix the football  stadium in LR, or just move all of the games to Fayetteville?  It'd be interesting to see how it played out. 

Offline KSHogg

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #101 on: February 09, 2012, 12:52:25 PM »

  But if we wait 10 or 20 years to do something, spend millions of dollars on WMS, millions of dollars on RRS, and organically it becomes a necessity to move all of the games, all we did was prolong something that should have been done now.  Stop throwing bad money after good.  Stop having 2 when 1 will suffice.

Nice point.

I don't know if it will ever be a necssity to move all the games but I do believe that is what will eventually happen, and most people probably do too.
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Offline HipHog

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #102 on: February 09, 2012, 12:53:00 PM »
But who would become Arkansas' team? Who would the Arkansas media, suddenly, begin to shove down our throats?  That's my point.  Just because we move 2 games, which only 110,000 people get to attend each year, I don't see how the entire sports culture of Arkansas would suddenly change. That isn't logical to me.

Exactly.  TV has made the whole proximity thing a moot point.  Look at the "stud" recruits we've lost the last few years.  They've had Razorback propaganda, so to speak, shoved down their throats for years. But that didn't keep them from looking elsewhere.  That's why it's important to improve the program.  If we continue to make RRS and the program a great representation of the state, more and more recruits will come. We'll get better.  We'll be more of a household name.  Maybe we'd lose a few Arkansas fans.  Maybe we gain some from Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, etc.  It works both ways, right? The U of A has record enrollment.  Those kids will have kids.  They'll go to hog games. That will continue. The university continues to expand. NWA continues to expand.  I just don't see our fan base shrinking as long as we keep investing in the program.

We don't have to be unique to be successful.  In fact, we've been unique since 1964 and we've got nothing to show for it. But I'm perfectly fine with letting LR have 1 crappy non-con game a year, especially if it's against LA-Monroe and it doesn't count as a home game for us.  But they need to expand that stadium to fit at least 65-70,000 people. They need to stop charging the UofA to play there. They need to let the UofA run concessions. Those things would at least make playing there not seem like such a step down.  Who's going to foot the bill, though? Is Arkansas in such a state of financial superiority that it can afford to throw money into WMS when one of the nicest college FB stadium sits just 2.5 hours up the road?  Maybe that's how the GSD debate should truly be settled.  Let the voters decide.  $50MM out of tax payers pockets to fix the football  stadium in LR, or just move all of the games to Fayetteville?  It'd be interesting to see how it played out.
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Offline Stephen Colboar

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #103 on: February 09, 2012, 12:56:18 PM »
But who would become Arkansas' team? Who would the Arkansas media, suddenly, begin to shove down our throats?  That's my point.  Just because we move 2 games, which only 110,000 people get to attend each year, I don't see how the entire sports culture of Arkansas would suddenly change. That isn't logical to me.

Exactly.  TV has made the whole proximity thing a moot point.  Look at the "stud" recruits we've lost the last few years.  They've had Razorback propaganda, so to speak, shoved down their throats for years. But that didn't keep them from looking elsewhere.  That's why it's important to improve the program.  If we continue to make RRS and the program a great representation of the state, more and more recruits will come. We'll get better.  We'll be more of a household name.  Maybe we'd lose a few Arkansas fans.  Maybe we gain some from Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, etc.  It works both ways, right? The U of A has record enrollment.  Those kids will have kids.  They'll go to hog games. That will continue. The university continues to expand. NWA continues to expand.  I just don't see our fan base shrinking as long as we keep investing in the program.

We don't have to be unique to be successful.  In fact, we've been unique since 1964 and we've got nothing to show for it. But I'm perfectly fine with letting LR have 1 crappy non-con game a year, especially if it's against LA-Monroe and it doesn't count as a home game for us.  But they need to expand that stadium to fit at least 65-70,000 people. They need to stop charging the UofA to play there. They need to let the UofA run concessions. Those things would at least make playing there not seem like such a step down.  Who's going to foot the bill, though? Is Arkansas in such a state of financial superiority that it can afford to throw money into WMS when one of the nicest college FB stadium sits just 2.5 hours up the road?  Maybe that's how the GSD debate should truly be settled.  Let the voters decide.  $50MM out of tax payers pockets to fix the football  stadium in LR, or just move all of the games to Fayetteville?  It'd be interesting to see how it played out.


Who would replace us as "Arkansas's team?" No one. That's the whole fricking point. It's why some specifically don't want to play stAte. It's why every person who ever spends time in this state end up rooting for Arkansas. Yes, it's really the only place like it besides maybe Nebraska, and it's very unique. You can preach up and down about how we don't need to be unique, but I think it's the very fabric of the program and all of it's tradition. It's a very unwise assumption to think that none of that matters.

Your conjecture about WMS expansion (the whole point of this thread is how stupid that is, right?) and voters is all a huge pipe dream.

I guess my whole point is that people get so god damn worked up over this and they never discuss the real issues.
Ty is spot on with the real issues at stake. The real problems that will need smart solutions and compromise across the board.
I'm just trying to bring to the forefront that this program and university's presence in LR has been and continues to be imperative to creating the Arkansas Razorback tradition that we all know so well. Starkville yes, we need this to be the state's "team." Whether anyone likes to admit it, we don't have the traditionally large numbers of alums and students to compete with out that aura. The Razorbacks are our "pro" team that everyone goes crazy over.

WMS games in LR don't create that by themselves, but it's the cornerstone of the presence of UofA in the state's center. I just think that's very important. No one is on here railing to keep an SEC game in WMS. I think we all understand we need those games on campus now.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 01:04:34 PM by Stephen Colboar »

Online Phat_Hawg

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #104 on: February 09, 2012, 12:56:57 PM »
i agree with having non conf games in LR, that aMm doesnt bother me as long as there is games here to see. I do find it funny that there is talk about expanding rrs when it doesnt sell out now. Talk about wasting money on LR games....

You should email Jeff Long and tell hm this since he obviously doesn't know what the Starkville he's doing. 
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Offline HipHog

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #105 on: February 09, 2012, 01:04:00 PM »
You should email Jeff Long and tell hm this since he obviously doesn't know what the Starkville he's doing.
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Offline Stephen Colboar

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #106 on: February 09, 2012, 01:06:36 PM »
i like regular coke better than coke zero

I can NEVER get my Helio Ocean on any wifis in teh RRS.

Offline hogggdadi

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #107 on: February 09, 2012, 01:25:39 PM »
don't make me bust out my douchebag salad recipe!!
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Offline Denny Crane

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #108 on: February 09, 2012, 01:33:38 PM »
I'm ok with 1 game per year in Little Rock.

I'm ok with every other year that being a Mississippi (take your pick), rotated with ULM.  I still think we should send Mizzou down there just to haze them.

I'm not ok with sending LSU there every other year, and I'm not ok with sending two games per year there perpetually.

aMm, sign a contract for one game per season there for 10 years.  I'm ok with that.

Fayetteville attendance might actually improve if people had to come to the Hill to see a good game.  If those people aren't coming to Fayetteville now, I don't see the big deal in them continuing to not come to Fayetteville for games.  Same result, right? 

Eastern and Southern Arkansas continue to lose population and it continues to shift to the north and west.

I fully expect.a compromise along these lines, two shitty non cons in one year, one lower tier SEC game the next. If NWA folks would quit trashing the entire state other than their slice of heaven thats connected with 40 miles of 2 lane interstate, theyd see that LR folks are ready to compromise, improve the stadium, and want the best for the hogs.as well.

Offline Biff Malibu

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #109 on: February 09, 2012, 01:43:29 PM »
I'm really surprised this is even an issue.  Bigtime football programs don't play their home games on the road...period (unless it's Jerryworld and everyone is getting rich).  Do you realize that we had three "home" games last year where we could not entertain recruits on official visits??  You know how big of a disadvantage that is??

I don't care what you do to WM, it's still a waste receptacle.  It's nothing more than a novelty and the chance for 20-30k people to attend a Razorback game for less money than it would cost to come to Fayetteville.  The other 20-30k is going to go to the game regardless of whether it's in LR or Fayetteville.

It's a cool atmosphere that's losing it's appeal as I get older but I have no problem with one game a year down there.  It better be a cupcake though.  With the constant upgrades that are happening to RRS, along with the other new facilities that are being built, the time has come for every meaningful football game to be played before 70k+ on the Hill.  If you argue otherwise....you're just not being honest with yourself.

Offline Ty Webb

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #110 on: February 09, 2012, 01:49:10 PM »

Who would replace us as "Arkansas's team?" No one. That's the whole fricking point. It's why some specifically don't want to play stAte. It's why every person who ever spends time in this state end up rooting for Arkansas. Yes, it's really the only place like it besides maybe Nebraska, and it's very unique. You can preach up and down about how we don't need to be unique, but I think it's the very fabric of the program and all of it's tradition. It's a very unwise assumption to think that none of that matters.

Your conjecture about WMS expansion (the whole point of this thread is how stupid that is, right?) and voters is all a huge pipe dream.

I guess my whole point is that people get so god damn worked up over this and they never discuss the real issues.
Ty is spot on with the real issues at stake. The real problems that will need smart solutions and compromise across the board.
I'm just trying to bring to the forefront that this program and university's presence in LR has been and continues to be imperative to creating the Arkansas Razorback tradition that we all know so well. Starkville yes, we need this to be the state's "team." Whether anyone likes to admit it, we don't have the traditionally large numbers of alums and students to compete with out that aura. The Razorbacks are our "pro" team that everyone goes crazy over.

WMS games in LR don't create that by themselves, but it's the cornerstone of the presence of UofA in the state's center. I just think that's very important. No one is on here railing to keep an SEC game in WMS. I think we all understand we need those games on campus now.
Yet nobody has addressed any of the questions I posed.
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Offline wmr

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #111 on: February 09, 2012, 01:54:21 PM »
If NWA folks would quit trashing the entire state other than their slice of heaven thats connected with 40 miles of 2 lane interstate, theyd see that LR folks are ready to compromise, improve the stadium, and want the best for the hogs.as well.

This is funny to me.  I hear a lot of NWA boosterism, but I rarely hear any mention of "compared to LR" or anywhere else for that matter.

I see jabs in that direction sometimes on here, but its almost always in jest. 

Fayetteville people love Fayetteville.  They generally go about that that without saying "its better than Fort Smith" or "its better than Hot Springs".

I really think that NWA might just be the one area of the state without a huge inferiority complex, and that seems to be unsettling to some people.  It is perceived as "arrogance" to actually like living where you live. 
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Offline Stephen Colboar

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #112 on: February 09, 2012, 02:19:59 PM »
I'm really surprised this is even an issue.  Bigtime football programs don't play their home games on the road...period (unless it's Jerryworld and everyone is getting rich).  Do you realize that we had three "home" games last year where we could not entertain recruits on official visits??  You know how big of a disadvantage that is??

I don't care what you do to WM, it's still a waste receptacle.  It's nothing more than a novelty and the chance for 20-30k people to attend a Razorback game for less money than it would cost to come to Fayetteville.  The other 20-30k is going to go to the game regardless of whether it's in LR or Fayetteville.

It's a cool atmosphere that's losing it's appeal as I get older but I have no problem with one game a year down there.  It better be a cupcake though.  With the constant upgrades that are happening to RRS, along with the other new facilities that are being built, the time has come for every meaningful football game to be played before 70k+ on the Hill.  If you argue otherwise....you're just not being honest with yourself.

Is anyone arguing otherwise?

Yet...


Yet nobody has addressed any of the questions I posed.

Exactly.


Everyone loves to get all fired up on these GSDs and turn it into a LR vs. NWA thing.
It's not that at all. Pretty much every single sensible person agrees with the meaningful games going to Fayetteville.
I mean, personally, I like the LSU games here in LR... even though I've had to miss them before because of work.
I completely understand the need to move that game to Fayetteville though... especially in these times where you look at the fact that it was a 1 vs 3 matchup this past season. Starkville, we'd probably get kids taking officials just to go to a game like that... getting them on campus is half the battle. Everyone understands that.

Let's talk about the real issues with pulling WMS games. It's not like a magic trick where we instantly generate more revenue. You're talking about a potential change that could piss off season ticket holders and donors on BOTH sides.

Offline ocelot_ark

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #113 on: February 09, 2012, 04:43:23 PM »
i refuse to believe you are this fricking stupid

What parts, exactly, do you think are wrong? And why? I can think of a couple of programs that had similar arrangements (Ole Miss and Alabama) that haven't fallen off the map in their states because they stopped playing a neutral site game.  Arkansas is different because ________?  Essentially, the answer is always some variation of, "It just is! We're super special."

Offline Stephen Colboar

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #114 on: February 09, 2012, 04:48:17 PM »
What parts, exactly, do you think are wrong? And why? I can think of a couple of programs that had similar arrangements (Ole Miss and Alabama) that haven't fallen off the map in their states because they stopped playing a neutral site game.  Arkansas is different because ________?  Essentially, the answer is always some variation of, "It just is! We're super special."


The answer is both of those states have in-state SEC competition for a larger base of in-state recruits that they want to host on campus for official visits for their rivalry games every other season.

Completely different situation.

In fact, I'd argue absolutely no one has a situation like ours.

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #115 on: February 09, 2012, 04:53:44 PM »


The answer is both of those states have in-state SEC competition for a larger base of in-state recruits that they want to host on campus for official visits for their rivalry games every other season.

Completely different situation.

In fact, I'd argue absolutely no one has a situation like ours.

So being the only SEC team in our state is a problem keeping the fans from supporting the program? We need two venues because we are the only bad mamajama in the state? I don't follow.

Offline Stephen Colboar

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #116 on: February 09, 2012, 04:56:55 PM »
So being the only SEC team in our state is a problem keeping the fans from supporting the program? We need two venues because we are the only bad mamajama in the state? I don't follow.

Nope... has more to do with retaining big-time exposure with the state's biggest (by far) media market and cultural/financial/etc. center.

Offline Stephen Colboar

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #117 on: February 09, 2012, 04:58:50 PM »
Seriously.

We play a basketball and baseball game in NLR every year for a reason, too.
Anyone calling for those games to end, too?

It's apples to oranges, but no one is wanting LR to get more games. We're conceding SEC action. We're conceding all but one game for the most part, it seems.

Online Mike Slive

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #118 on: February 09, 2012, 05:01:17 PM »
Nope... has more to do with retaining big-time exposure with the state's biggest (by far) media market and cultural/financial/etc. center.

Basketball has a couple more home games to answer your other post. So the AR media is going to keep games in LR because they will boycott the Hogs? Whatever will happen to their ratings when they stop covering the Hogs? This has more to do with Stephen's than Wally, IMO.

Edit: also, wtf is one game really going to do? I will concede one game but sounds like LR thinks its a gawd dang circus coming to town. There is a campus and it is not there. Why is that so crazy? Cause pawpaw did it that way?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 05:05:30 PM by Mike Slive »

Offline Stephen Colboar

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #119 on: February 09, 2012, 05:06:02 PM »
Basketball has a couple more home games to answer your other post. So the AR media is going to keep games in LR because they will boycott the Hogs? Whatever will happen to their ratings when they stop covering the Hogs? This has more to do with Stephen's than Wally, IMO.

Well, exactly.

But my god. It's like no one reads my posts all the way through.
Nowhere have I said we'd lose fans or that the media would boycott.

It's more about retention. Yes, we need Little Rock to be a Razorback town. If you pull everything in every sport out of Little Rock, yeah media attention would go away over time. I'm talking 10-20+ years in the future.

There's a reason Long organizes huge pep rally type events all week for the first LR game every year.

Offline Southern Yeoman

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #120 on: February 09, 2012, 05:10:47 PM »
Lot of smoking keyboards today.

And to think that when I was in HS, a lot of boys were embarrassed to take typing.

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #121 on: February 09, 2012, 05:44:15 PM »
This is funny to me.  I hear a lot of NWA boosterism, but I rarely hear any mention of "compared to LR" or anywhere else for that matter.

I see jabs in that direction sometimes on here, but its almost always in jest. 

Fayetteville people love Fayetteville.  They generally go about that that without saying "its better than Fort Smith" or "its better than Hot Springs".

I really think that NWA might just be the one area of the state without a huge inferiority complex, and that seems to be unsettling to some people.  It is perceived as "arrogance" to actually like living where you live.

Fayetteville doesn't have an inferiority complex, but NWA as a whole kind of does.  I'm glad we haven't seen much of this in this thread, but I've seen and heard it over and over.  Griping about new freeway lanes or interchanges in LR because state money is helping pay for it, griping about Alltel Arena being built, etc. People getting a little too excited about having an outdoor mall in Rogers.  Crime and black people, "oh noes".  General griping about NWA money "supporting the rest of the state".  One upsmanship like that retarded Rogers arena idea which was to be combined with a WNBA team, both of which were terrible ideas.  Pushing for a 2nd medical school in NWA which led to the UAMS-Northwest branch getting built, which is kind of a metaphor for WMS in that it will make medical education in Arkansas crappier by watering down education and wasting money on substandard programs at a secondary site.

It's kind of a separate issue, though.

The University of Arkansas has to do what is best for the University of Arkansas.  It's not about history, it's not about regional differences, and (sadly) it's not even about student convenience.

It's about money and the on-field success of the program, which of course begets more money.

It was to UA's advantage to start playing games at a larger Quigley stadium in the 1920s and to play in LR to get bigger crowds and donations until 2001, when RRS expanded. Since then it hasn't been to UA's advantage any more, and it's been about compromise.  I don't get why some people want the UA to give up revenue, recruiting weekends, and ability to improve its own stadium by playing at WMS.

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #122 on: February 09, 2012, 05:54:21 PM »
The argument I hear is that it's because we won't have BMFP forever and 5-7's will require LR games to keep the revenue flowing in from all parts of the state.  Also, could be because if Gus makes some noise in 10 or so years and we go 5-7, then the media may not cover the Hogs as much.

I think I understand what they are saying.  I just think they must be scared or selfish.  I drive to LR from even 35 more minutes north all the time.  3 hours dude, 3 hours.

Offline Trigger7672

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #123 on: February 09, 2012, 06:14:46 PM »
The argument I hear is that it's because we won't have BMFP forever and 5-7's will require LR games to keep the revenue flowing in from all parts of the state.


Well we are definitely fricked once Petrino is gone. I guess these people think we will never hire another good coach again.

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #124 on: February 09, 2012, 06:18:49 PM »
Lot of smoking keyboards today.

And to think that when I was in HS, a lot of boys were embarrassed to take typing.

Yep. And piano lessons too. Now that I'm old(er), I wish like Starkville I could bang out a tune on a piano.
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