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Author Topic: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824  (Read 19619 times)

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Offline ocelot_ark

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #125 on: February 09, 2012, 06:21:25 PM »
Who would replace us as "Arkansas's team?" No one. That's the whole fricking point.
Then why do we worry so much about what might happen if we take games away from LR? That's MY point.  Do you think Arkansas fans will stop being Arkansas fans and just quit following college football COMPLETELY? For your theory to hold water (Arkansas will lose fans if we take the games away from LR), you have to assume that those former fans will become fans of someone else, or just stop being fans of ANYONE.  So, who do you see as a threat to steal away Razorback fans? Or is it that you think they'll just stop supporting anyone?

It's why some specifically don't want to play stAte.

You mean these putheys who think SO VERY LITTLE of the UofA that they actually think that by playing a Sun Belt team we'll start losing fans/recruits...to a Sun Belt team?

It's why every person who ever spends time in this state end up rooting for Arkansas.

False.

Yes, it's really the only place like it besides maybe Nebraska, and it's very unique. You can preach up and down about how we don't need to be unique, but I think it's the very fabric of the program and all of it's tradition. It's a very unwise assumption to think that none of that matters.

Actually, I have about 120 D1 programs that are operating just fine without this "uniqueness." LR apologists have ONLY hyperbole.  THAT'S IT.  You mentioned Nebraska. How many games does Nebraska play in the center of their state? None, you say? Their in a corner of their state, you say? How, on earth, have they managed to survive!!?!?

Did Alabama or Ole Miss lose any of their prestige or traditions by moving away from neutral site home games? I'm simply wanting a legitimate argument for why these other programs are so much different than Arkansas.  How these other programs have continued to have support or, in the case of Bama, success despite making such moves.  Explain to me how Nebraska can have one of the most storied programs in college football, the support of their entire state, but Arkansas cannot.  Explain that to me.  Explain to me why NE or AL or MS football fans haven more confidence in the worth of their programs than you guys seem to have in ours.

Your conjecture about WMS expansion (the whole point of this thread is how stupid that is, right?) and voters is all a huge pipe dream.

Lost me here.  What's a pipe dream? That they'd expand WMS? That they'd have to lean on taxpayers to accomplish such a feat? I don't remember how past WMS renovations have been funded.  Enlighten me.

I guess my whole point is that people get so god damn worked up over this and they never discuss the real issues.
Ty is spot on with the real issues at stake.

You mean the season tickets? Well, since I'm Jeff Long, let me tell you how we'll tackle it... :sarcasm:
Ty is concerned about his pocket book and his convenience.  "I live 10 minutes from WMS." Well holy aMm. I'm really surprised that he's raising those questions.  If you can't afford season tickets, don't buy them.  I don't have season tickets.  But from what I remember, they had a long open session for people to order them/make their donations. Once that deadline passed, they opened up those tickets to single-game sales.  I would imagine that would be the strategy going forward, too.  I'm not saying there won't be challenges in regards to changing the "answer the call" type stuff.  But that's a secondary issue.  You first have to make the decision to move the games because it's what's best for the program.   You can't run the athletic department and still think, "but what about that guy down in North Little Rock who won't be able to afford a Fayetteville season ticket package."  Obviously they feel pretty confident about our demand for tickets since they're expanding...

The real problems that will need smart solutions and compromise across the board.

What do you, as a LR apologist, propose as a compromise?  Take away a game and call it a day? Leave the stadium as it is?  Or keep 2 games and add significant seating? 

I'm just trying to bring to the forefront that this program and university's presence in LR has been and continues to be imperative to creating the Arkansas Razorback tradition that we all know so well.

So you're saying that LR is very important in terms of keeping our tradition of playing in LR.  Well, yeah. Agreed.  The rest of our traditions and their ability to continue?  There's nothing that PROVES we couldn't be just as successful without LR.  It's nothing but hyperbole and posturing.  My position is at least backed up by a couple of examples, cost savings, and official recruiting visit benefits.

Starkville yes, we need this to be the state's "team." Whether anyone likes to admit it, we don't have the traditionally large numbers of alums and students to compete with out that aura. The Razorbacks are our "pro" team that everyone goes crazy over.

Who would become our "pro" team, otherwise?

WMS games in LR don't create that by themselves, but it's the cornerstone of the presence of UofA in the state's center. I just think that's very important. No one is on here railing to keep an SEC game in WMS. I think we all understand we need those games on campus now.

Agreed.  I just think you're EVENTUALLY going to have EVERY game on campus.  So why not pull off the bandaid now, at the height of our program post-1964, and make it easier for fans to get over their hurt feelings because we're so good. 

Online Aporkalypse_Now

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #126 on: February 09, 2012, 06:24:29 PM »
Well we are definitely fricked once Petrino is gone. I guess these people think we will never hire another good coach again.

Petrino is an opportunity for us. They make it sound like a damn curse that we'll suck when he leaves.

We were a top 10 program when Broyles retired.  Holtz was a big time coach, he just got run oft.  Hatfield was a solid coach, and he got run oft.  We hired shitty and now we aren't a top 10 program anymore.

We need to close the gap between our $72 mil budget and the $100-110 Bama, Tennessee and Florida have and make sure we have top notch facilities.  We don't have the resources in this state to waste millions on competing venues.

Years of winning consistently will ensure our fans lavish money on the program, and Petrino has a legacy to leave the next coach.  It's amazing that instead of seeing him as an opportunity to build our program up to the top again people see it as inevitable we will suck donkey dick when he leaves and therefore we might as well play in a 53,000 seat stadium forever and not bother expecting anything better than 9th place in the SEC.  That's bullshit talk.

Offline Arkansas Proud

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #127 on: February 09, 2012, 06:53:00 PM »
Fayetteville doesn't have an inferiority complex, but NWA as a whole kind of does. 

 ???

Most of what you posted was the other way around. 

Think about it.  People move from all over the state to NWA.  Nobody moves from NWA to Little Rock.  Nobody.
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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #128 on: February 09, 2012, 06:57:51 PM »
???

Most of what you posted was the other way around. 

Think about it.  People move from all over the state to NWA.  Nobody moves from NWA to Little Rock.  Nobody.
not true
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Offline Denny Crane

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #129 on: February 09, 2012, 06:58:32 PM »
???

Most of what you posted was the other way around. 

Think about it.  People move from all over the state to NWA.  Nobody moves from NWA to Little Rock.  Nobody.

Either this is a good joke.....or proves the entire point.

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #130 on: February 09, 2012, 06:58:58 PM »
???

Most of what you posted was the other way around. 

Think about it.  People move from all over the state to NWA.  Nobody moves from NWA to Little Rock.  Nobody.

See what I mean.  Case and point.  And also not true.

Offline Ty Webb

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #131 on: February 09, 2012, 07:04:15 PM »
Petrino is an opportunity for us. They make it sound like a damn curse that we'll suck when he leaves.

We were a top 10 program when Broyles retired.  Holtz was a big time coach, he just got run oft.  Hatfield was a solid coach, and he got run oft.  We hired shitty and now we aren't a top 10 program anymore.

We need to close the gap between our $72 mil budget and the $100-110 Bama, Tennessee and Florida have and make sure we have top notch facilities.  We don't have the resources in this state to waste millions on competing venues.

Years of winning consistently will ensure our fans lavish money on the program, and Petrino has a legacy to leave the next coach.  It's amazing that instead of seeing him as an opportunity to build our program up to the top again people see it as inevitable we will suck donkey dick when he leaves and therefore we might as well play in a 53,000 seat stadium forever and not bother expecting anything better than 9th place in the SEC.  That's bullshit talk.
How do we close that $30 million gap? Easy to say we need to do it...much more difficult coming up with answers.

Moving a game or 2 to Fayetteville will possibly only create the same $$$ that we have now. Donations/Answer the Call monies from the LR only crowd (20-30K per others estimate in this thread) will by and large go away. Folks that don't already have season RRS tickets won't all of a sudden ante up for a seat license + the cost for tickets to 7-8 games. No way.

I also believe you could lose some Fayetteville season ticket sales (as I posted earlier) due to the fact that a family of 4 would have an extra $500 they'd have to spend for season tickets for 2 crappy games. Throw in the logic that Long would also need to recoup the seperate Answer the Call monies that wouldn't be coming in from LR anymore by possibly upping the ante once again for RRS seat priviledges and you could have a sticky situation.

Or, as I stated earlier, I could be way off base and there is a huge demand for more season tickets in Fayetteville than I think.
Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're a tremendous slouch.

Offline Southern Yeoman

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #132 on: February 09, 2012, 07:04:45 PM »
Yep. And piano lessons too. Now that I'm old(er), I wish like Starkville I could bang out a tune on a piano.
My mother was a piano teacher and all us kids played piano.  She let me quit in HS to play football.  I wish she hadn’t.  I wasn’t worth a aMm at DT, but I would be pretty darn good on piano by now.

Offline Cerdo

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #133 on: February 09, 2012, 07:29:49 PM »
How do we close that $30 million gap? Easy to say we need to do it...much more difficult coming up with answers.

Moving a game or 2 to Fayetteville will possibly only create the same $$$ that we have now. Donations/Answer the Call monies from the LR only crowd (20-30K per others estimate in this thread) will by and large go away. Folks that don't already have season RRS tickets won't all of a sudden ante up for a seat license + the cost for tickets to 7-8 games. No way.

I also believe you could lose some Fayetteville season ticket sales (as I posted earlier) due to the fact that a family of 4 would have an extra $500 they'd have to spend for season tickets for 2 crappy games. Throw in the logic that Long would also need to recoup the separate Answer the Call monies that wouldn't be coming in from LR anymore by possibly upping the ante once again for RRS seat privileges and you could have a sticky situation.

Or, as I stated earlier, I could be way off base and there is a huge demand for more season tickets in Fayetteville than I think.
I'm confused entirely by Ty's questions though.
It is been said in this thread that we end up losing 1 to 2 million to play the games in LR.
If we are pulling in 1-2 million from "Answer the Call" and donations by having the games in LR, which is a number I am absolutely making up because I have no idea what it is - well, isn't that basically a break even?

I don't know if they get more $ by having EVERY game in RRS simply by moving a cupcake or two to Fayetteville but I'd be willing to bet that demand would go up among ticket buyers and donors if bama and LSU were BOTH on the Fayetteville slate. 

I won't address the non money stuff in this argument anymore because I think this entire argument at its base is simply a psychological rehash of the NWA VS Central AR culture war, which I have grown tired of, being a non Arkansan who loves both areas of the state. 

Getting back to the money stuff - the point about a state vote asking everyone to pay a tax for WMS improvements vs just moving all games to Fayetteville would be a landslide.  We aren't a wealthy state and whether or not we keep a game in WMS or not or two is still not addressing the issue that the WMS people need to get proactive on creating some kind of revenue stream for that stadium beyond spending a bunch of money for one or two Hog games a year. 

By the way, I have gone to every game in RRS since moving back in 2000 and I can't recall any game, against any cupcake, that had less people in the stands then WMS capacity... certainly not since the expansion. 

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #134 on: February 09, 2012, 08:18:34 PM »
The level that we are aiming for is above anything we've achieved in our history, even in the beloved 1960's.  This is big boy football, and we need to run our program as such - not under the auspices of financial or geographic constraints from half a decade ago that no longer exist.

True, meaningful growth is never without pain, anguish, or effort.  Move 'em all.  Now.  If certain individuals allow this to drive a wedge between themselves and the program, then maybe their motives aren't so pure.  Convenience be damned.





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Offline Ty Webb

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #135 on: February 09, 2012, 08:29:49 PM »
 

By the way, I have gone to every game in RRS since moving back in 2000 and I can't recall any game, against any cupcake, that had less people in the stands then WMS capacity... certainly not since the expansion.
It HAS happened, although not in the last 7 seasons. In 2002 vs Weber St 52,683, 2003 vs La-Lafayette 54,843 and 2004 vs N Mexico St 53,275. Several have been in the 60-62k range.
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Offline Southern Yeoman

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #136 on: February 09, 2012, 08:33:54 PM »
I’m supposed to have a take in my posts.  Here’s my take.  It has nothing to do with figures.  I like tradition.  The past year has seen West Virginia, an eastern school, join the southern plains schools, Boise State, in the northern plains, join the eastern schools, all to get more $$.  If that’s 21st century football, ie, schools spurning years of folklore to profit, fine.  I like to turn a profit, too.  It’s just left me behind in less than a generation.  There’s a tradition of playing in LR.  Who cares what Alabama did?

Offline Cerdo

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #137 on: February 09, 2012, 08:49:13 PM »
Like I said, this debate is, in its essence, nothing more than a battlefield to air grievances - Little Rock feels that NWA disrespects its place and importance and NWA takes little digs at Central Arkansas just to piss it off because it knows that it can.  I know that there is a small vein of thought in NWA that looks down it's nose at Central Arkansas, but I think it is an incredibly small minority - it's more of a situation where the two regions competing up here for the title of "center of NWA culture" spend all their time trying to remind the other sibling that they're now beneath them.

It is a disfunctional family - Little Rock is the middle aged man pissed off that his kids named Fayetteville and Bentonville are not giving him his due while the two kids in question are so busy trying to frick each other over that they don't realize that they come off as little pricks to Grandpa at Thanksgiving.   

Few people seem to be at real disagreement here over what probably needs to be the future.  I've seen almost everyone agree to one non conf game and there seems to be almost universal agreement over moving LSU to Fayetteville.  So in the end what is the fighting REALLY about? 

Like I said, simply a forum to rehash the NWA vs LR culture war and nothing more....

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #138 on: February 09, 2012, 09:05:26 PM »
Gotta love this debate...

Eh, I know that UAMS in Little Rock is littered with buildings named for and paid for by NWA and Fort Smith people.

I don't see the reciprocal private investment on the Arkansas campus from Little Rock families.  In a lot of ways, I feel that LR has always treated the U of A like the U of NWA.

I still don't see any evidence in NWA of one-upsmanship vs LR.  Its Rogers vs Fayetteville if anything.  Benton County vs Washington County.  I think the difference is that LR people somehow seem aware of things being built in NWA, like malls, arenas, etc.  I don't think your average resident of NWA really thinks about LR that often.  That's not an insult, but its just reality.

Local TV weather coverage here stops around Russellville.  Most of the local TV stations cover news in eastern Oklahoma more than they do anything in central Arkansas.  That's just the way it is. 

The legislative bullshit is more about central Arkansas and small town Arkansas.  There is a push to "put a 4-lane road in every town over 5,000 people" down there that is complete horseshit, when NWA has been trying to get a by-pass around Bella Vista for decades.  Stupid aMm like that...  And it does seem that LR gets a lot of its amenity projects paid for with state funds, while NWA has always seemed to bootstrap those kinds of things locally.  But your average NWA resident isn't even aware of things like that.  They don't care.  This corner of the state has operated like its own little world for a long time, and even with more connectivity to the rest of Arkansas, it still has that mentality.  That's not a "we're better than you" thing.  That's a "we gotta do aMm ourselves" mentality, because that's the way this area has always operated.

Its crazy how when you say something like "the games should be played on campus", you are already "talking down to Little Rock."  That's about you guys down there, not us up here.
 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 09:14:57 PM by wmr »
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Offline Hogtired

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #139 on: February 09, 2012, 09:16:59 PM »
I live in the Rock and I understand both sides. If I owned a business I would want to kick my competitors butt and make a huge profit. Yet, if I have your business and you are moving to a competitor I would be mad as a hornet.

For the People in NWA, we are not poor, uneducated or drunkards. We are Arkansans whether born here or transplants and we are Hog fans; just like you. A dollar here counts as much as a dollar there.

We cannot win the revenue contribution battle nor will we ever. We are not the problem. It is not our fault BMFP and Long want to do things differently at the expense of loyal fans to raise money. Geez folks, learn to look at the whole picture and be respectful to your fellow Hog fans. Step back and look at it unemotionally and I'm positive the outcome will be the same.

Is Duckman making predictions on this.

Now, where is that screen door?
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Offline Ty Webb

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #140 on: February 09, 2012, 09:21:32 PM »
I still don't see any evidence in NWA of one-upsmanship vs LR.  Its Rogers vs Fayetteville if anything.  Benton County vs Washington County.  I think the difference is that LR people somehow seem aware of things being built in NWA, like malls, arenas, etc.  I don't think your average resident of NWA really thinks about LR that often.  That's not an insult, but its just reality.

Local TV weather coverage here stops around Russellville.  Most of the local TV stations cover news in eastern Oklahoma more than they do anything in central Arkansas.  That's just the way it is. 

I agree 100% with this. When I was in school up there it was like I was in another state with Missouri and Oklahoma news. I'm not saying it's good or bad but there is a disconnect between NWA and the rest of the state. TV down here covers the whole state. NWA TV covers only that area of the state.

Like WMR said, that's just the way it is.
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Offline Cerdo

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #141 on: February 09, 2012, 09:28:22 PM »
Yet nobody has addressed any of the questions I posed.
I tried to at least put it in a different light because I think your concept may be flawed.... although it may be my lack of understanding that is the problem.

Do you have any thoughts about what I wrote above about what we supposedly lose playing in WMS versus the counterbalance of donations? Does any of that make sense?

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #142 on: February 09, 2012, 09:31:38 PM »
I think every one looks at this as to what is in their best intrest. Cent ark people want the convenience of attending a couple of games.  NWA folks want to have all of the games in their back yard.  I'm a cent ark fan that has gone on record for wanting all games in Fayetteville. 

Truth be told, I'm just tired of sitting by a 400 lb guy from Smackover. Every game at WMS I'm wishing I was in my club seat in Fayetteville.  If I had a club seat in LR, I'd probably be asking to keep the games in LR.

That being said, it will be in the best interest of the program to keep all of the games on campus.

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #143 on: February 09, 2012, 09:35:52 PM »
I agree 100% with this. When I was in school up there it was like I was in another state with Missouri and Oklahoma news. I'm not saying it's good or bad but there is a disconnect between NWA and the rest of the state. TV down here covers the whole state. NWA TV covers only that area of the state.

Like WMR said, that's just the way it is.

Exactly.  If there's a murder or a big construction project in NWA, your local LR news will cover it in their "across Arkansas" segment, just like they would cover something in Hot Springs or Pine Bluff.

In NWA, if it doesn't happen in one of about 12 counties, we never hear about it.  We even have our own version of the newspaper up here, and unless its local news, its backpage stuff. 

I haven't been to LR since 2006, unless you count driving through once to go duck hunting.  I've been to DFW about a dozen times in that same time-frame.  I'd bet your average NWA resident goes to Dallas more often than LR, unless they are chasing kids around with high school sports that take them to Central Arkansas.

Starkville, I've been to Las Vegas more times in the last five years than Little Rock.  A lot more. 

NWA has always revolved around Tulsa as a big-bro metro, but in the last 10 years, with all the growth, Tulsa is pretty much off the radar here except for an alternate airport.

In the average five-year span, I have a slightly more intimate relationship with LR than I do OKC.  That's no offense to either, but since I'm not from there, and I don't have family there, I just don't ever have much of a reason to go to either city.

LSU fans are tres gauche.

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #144 on: February 09, 2012, 09:36:33 PM »
I swear it's not about culture with me. I really just don't understand why you wouldn't want our team to play in a better stadium in front of a larger crowd. All just to see La Tech? Something just doesn't jive.

Offline Cerdo

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #145 on: February 09, 2012, 09:38:02 PM »


That being said, it will be in the best interest of the program to keep all of the games on campus.
Well, I do think it serves the long term interests of the program to keep a game at WMS, even if you do lose money and even if you do lose a recruiting weekend.  I may even make a "pole". 

Sometimes you have to look at the intangibles that you gain.  MLB is a sport that has probably lost a generation of fans due to playing all the playoff games late at night when little kids were headed to bed.  Boxing has been relegated to die hards by disappearing off network TV. 

Short term profit < long term health

Offline ocelot_ark

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #146 on: February 09, 2012, 09:38:17 PM »
I just hope none of the people who are "up in arms" over Petrino's recruiting realized that playing in LR directly impacts his ability to recruit on an equal basis with our competition.  In the worst state in the SEC for in-state talent. 

Good luck, coach.

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #147 on: February 09, 2012, 09:55:18 PM »
I tried to at least put it in a different light because I think your concept may be flawed.... although it may be my lack of understanding that is the problem.

Do you have any thoughts about what I wrote above about what we supposedly lose playing in WMS versus the counterbalance of donations? Does any of that make sense?
Yes, I understand what your saying. If we had the numbers Long and Co. were privy to it might be a cut an dried issue to either move all of them OR to make sure you keep 1 scrub game at WMS.  :) I would think it's closer to $1 million lost vs $2 million but I have nothing to back that up OR if Answer the Call helped even out the numbers for playing in LR.

I'm just not sure 10-15K more tickets sales for 2 bad games in Fayetteville will offset the potential amount of donations/Answer the Call (ATC) monies that will be lost OR that ALL RRS season tickets holders would be willing to fork over even more money for ATC + 2 games worth of crappy tickets.

Seems to me if it was an easy decision Long and Co. would have already made the call and moved on.

As far as expanding RRS....we are once again expanding at what seems to be our zenith in football for the last 30 years. We did the same thing in basketball and 15 years later folks were saying we built BWA too big/empty seats are pathetic/etc, etc.

Thinking that we will get another BMFP when he eventually leaves is probably foolhardy. Rarely does a team follow up a great coach with another one. We got lucky with Sutton/Richardson. Bama can't do it, Florida can't do it, USC can't do it, Texas can't do, it Oklahoma can't do it and those are teams with multiple football national titles in the last 40 years. New Operations Center = great. Move LSU to Fayetteville, a must for recruiting = great. Expand RRS = meh.

If Long had his original way we wouldn't even have this thread. LR would still always have 2 games. There'd be no expansion plans and we'd be bitching why Grobe, Bowden or Tuberville once again had us ranked 35th in recruiting.
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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #148 on: February 09, 2012, 09:59:10 PM »
Great off season thread topic. It reminds me of piranhas. Most of the year in the habitat of these little meat eaters, it is perfectly safe to swim or wade the water amongst them. But during the dry season, when the waterholes dry up into small pools, they turn on each other as food is scarce. And they will devour any poor creature that ventures in.

Woe be the MIZZOU or aTm troll who dares to wade the Woopig in the offseason.

Carry on. And keep at least one game in LR.
Our founding fathers would have been shooting by now.

Offline ocelot_ark

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Re: GSD v2012.2.8 Build 70824
« Reply #149 on: February 09, 2012, 10:10:13 PM »
For the "keep 1 game in LR" crowd:

For how long? Forever?

Are you okay with 1 game forever without any upgrades to WMS?  If you're assuming upgrades, who pays for it?

 

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